Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

Yes, California firearms regs are much more sanely written than federal ones.

 

I'm not sure on that sanity bit. If you went to the ER in CA (or anywhere) talking about imaginary threats and technologies, you'd be held for psych evaluation, for example. And yet CA has codified these things into law. Not to mention the requirements to add to the list of allowed firearms being so restrictive as to be unconstitutional. 

CA is playing the same game with microstamping that TX is playing with its heartbeat abortion law: Making a requirement that looks like there's some small exception in the law that doesn't exist in actuality. Texas allows abortions as long as there isn't a fetal heartbeat. But that can start -- depending on how you look at it -- as early as four or five weeks (there's a "heartbeat" but as I understand it not a proper heart, just a tube structure), while the average time it takes a woman to discover she's pregnant sits out at 5.5 weeks (and probably a lot later in many cases). So, effectively no abortions. Meanwhile, California requires a firearm to be on its roster of allowable guns to have a feature that isn't viable and doesn't exist (microstamping). This type of tactic is dirty whether one agrees the end result is desirable or not.

 

I personally think we have a bit too much ends justifies the means mentality in this country these days.

[Iuz the Evil]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/26/middleeast/israel-judicial-overhaul-legislation-intl/index.html
 

Yikes. What’s happening with the Israeli judiciary is really scary stuff. I don’t love all the aspects of our current Supreme Court, but giving congress the power to manage them in this way would eliminate one of the branches of government - essentially making it totally subordinate to the legislative branch.

 

 Very unpopular with the public too, apparently. Likely to go through anyway. Pretty alarming.

[megaplayboy]

6 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/26/middleeast/israel-judicial-overhaul-legislation-intl/index.html
 

Yikes. What’s happening with the Israeli judiciary is really scary stuff. I don’t love all the aspects of our current Supreme Court, but giving congress the power to manage them in this way would eliminate one of the branches of government - essentially making it totally subordinate to the legislative branch.

 

 Very unpopular with the public too, apparently. Likely to go through anyway. Pretty alarming.

The current government would essentially become a ruling junta with the ability to disregard judicial rulings it doesn't like.  One would suspect that, based upon not too distant history, that fascism and judaism are fundamentally incompatible.  A fair number of Israelis out in the streets seem to agree.  We'll find out soon enough.

[Joe Walsh]

Wow, I didn't know WaPo editors read this site! It's so nice of them to try answering our questions in a front-page article today:

https://wapo.st/3JQ1yZd

(That should be a "gift article" link that doesn't require a subscription; otherwise, here's the regular link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-america-gun-culture-politics/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001)

 

Their answer as to why the AR-15 is so popular in gun culture today? Marketing.

 

Quote

The AR-15 wasn’t supposed to be a bestseller.

The rugged, powerful weapon was originally designed as a soldiers’ rifle in the late 1950s. “An outstanding weapon with phenomenal lethality,” an internal Pentagon report raved. It soon became standard issue for U.S. troops in the Vietnam War, where the weapon earned a new name: the M16.

But few gunmakers saw a semiautomatic version of the rifle — with its shrouded barrel, pistol grip and jutting ammunition magazine — as a product for ordinary people. It didn’t seem suited for hunting. It seemed like overkill for home defense. Gun executives doubted many buyers would want to spend their money on one.

The industry’s biggest trade shows banished the AR-15 to the back. The National Rifle Association and other industry allies were focused on promoting traditional rifles and handguns. Most gun owners also shunned the AR-15, dismissing it as a “black rifle” that broke from the typical wood-stocked long guns that were popular at the time.

“We’d have NRA members walk by our booth and give us the finger,” said Randy Luth, the founder of gunmaker DPMS, one of the earliest companies to market AR-15s.

Today, the AR-15 is the best-selling rifle in the United States, industry figures indicate. About 1 in 20 U.S. adults — or roughly 16 million people — own at least one AR-15, according to polling data from The Washington Post and Ipsos.

Almost every major gunmaker now produces its own version of the weapon. The modern AR-15 dominates the walls and websites of gun dealers.

The AR-15 has gained a polarizing hold on the American imagination. Its unmistakable silhouette is used as a political statement emblazoned on T-shirts and banners and, among a handful of conservative members of Congress, on silver lapel pins. One Republican lawmaker, Rep. Barry Moore of Alabama, introduced a bill in February to declare the AR-15 the “National Gun of America.”

It also has become a stark symbol of the nation’s gun violence epidemic. Ten of the 17 deadliest U.S. mass shootings since 2012 have involved AR-15s.

This transformation — from made-for-combat weapon to mass-market behemoth and cultural flash point — is the product of a sustained and intentional effort that has forged an American icon.

[unclevlad]

Report just now of another shooting event.  This time at a Christian children's school (pre to 6th grade).  3 students reported dead, as is the shooter, per NYT.  VERY little other information at this time;  police in Nashville are expected to hold a press conference soon.

 

 

 

 

[Old Man]

33 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Report just now of another shooting event.  This time at a Christian children's school (pre to 6th grade).  3 students reported dead, as is the shooter, per NYT.  VERY little other information at this time;  police in Nashville are expected to hold a press conference soon.

 

3 adults and 3 "pediatric patients", per the police.  Five more wounded who haven't died yet.  Shooter was a girl with two ARs.

[Hermit]

Yeah, the fact the shooter was a young woman goes very much against the norm* . She's yet to be identified as of this post.

 

 

 

* "Norm being a horrible term for school shootings, sorry

[Joe Walsh]

 

 

 

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

Yeah, the fact the shooter was a young woman goes very much against the norm* . She's yet to be identified as of this post.

 

 

 

* "Norm being a horrible term for school shootings, sorry

 

I'm seeing reports that the shooter was 28 years of age.  Really have to wonder what the motive was this time, not that the motives for school shootings ever really make sense.

[unclevlad]

From CNN:
 

Quote

Rep. Andy Ogles, who represents Tennessee's 5th Congressional District which includes the Covenant School, said he is "devastated by the tragedy," in a statement on Twitter.

Ogles said as a father, "I am utterly heartbroken by this senseless act of violence," according to the statement.

 

But will you support legislation to curb the style of weapons used?  

We don't buy the self-serving mouthings of those who get caught for PEDs, or domestic abuse, or supporting racist statements/causes.  Why should we consider your words as anything different?

[Pattern Ghost]

7 hours ago, GM Joe said:

Their answer as to why the AR-15 is so popular in gun culture today? Marketing.

 

I think they missed a key point (based on the quote, haven't read the article), which is why it didn't become popular earlier? Americans have a long history of embracing surplus military weapons, from those old, sturdy wood and steel bolt actions to M1 Garands. So, why not the AR? Because the M16 had a poor reputation out of the gate. People looked at the plastic furniture and called them Mattel guns. They were much derided right up until I went into the service in 1986. So, what changed?

 

Marketing, sure. But I'm going to posit three main influences on the popularity boost: First, Glock's own marketing. Suddenly, plastic guns were magical! Glock perfection. Plastics and polymers gradually became acceptable sometime (I'm guessing, based on memory, not statistics) sometime in the early 90s. Second, was the adoption of the M4 format, shorter barreled carbine version of the rifle. I was issued an M16 A1 or A2 (depending on unit or mission) in the 80s and early 90s. These were full length rifles with fixed stocks. The M4 shaved a good amount off the barrel length, and came with ergonomic improvements like an adjustable stock. This made the rifle much handier and useable. Third, of course, is the Assault Weapon Ban. Telling people they can't have something is a sure way to sell that thing.

[TrickstaPriest]

Hm.  In general, billions more dollars have been sunk into overall marketing strategies since the 80s and 90s... relatively speaking, a lot of money even if old values were caught up to new ones.  So I don't discount the value in that, either...

 

From my perspective, the real argument suggested here is that the weapon ban is hard to enforce - ie trying to determine restriction by the features of the gun is problematic.  Not that the idea of restrictions are unsound, just not by these methods

[Old Man]

14 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

From my perspective, the real argument suggested here is that the weapon ban is hard to enforce - ie trying to determine restriction by the features of the gun is problematic.  Not that the idea of restrictions are unsound, just not by these methods

 

Restricting firearm features is the kind of legislation that actually works in California and in other countries as well.  Attempts to ban weapons based on a list of weapon names, or fuzzy terms like "assault rifle", are doomed to fail.

[Pattern Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Restricting firearm features is the kind of legislation that actually works in California and in other countries as well.  Attempts to ban weapons based on a list of weapon names, or fuzzy terms like "assault rifle", are doomed to fail.

 

I left CA in 2003, so I'm not up to date with their laws. What restrictions are in place? How are their numbers before and after the restrictions? Did they grandfather in any existing weapons?

[death tribble]

Posting here due the situation in Florida

Italian art experts astounded by David statue uproar in Florida

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65087218

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

From CNN:
 

 

But will you support legislation to curb the style of weapons used?  

We don't buy the self-serving mouthings of those who get caught for PEDs, or domestic abuse, or supporting racist statements/causes.  Why should we consider your words as anything different?

 

"Thoughts and prayers," same platitudes Republicans always spout after these tragedies.

[Old Man]

35 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I left CA in 2003, so I'm not up to date with their laws. What restrictions are in place? How are their numbers before and after the restrictions? Did they grandfather in any existing weapons?

 

1.

 

Quote

 

[T]he following firearms are banned by characteristic (from Penal Code §30515(a), formerly §12276.1):

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.

(B) A thumbhole stock.

(C) A folding or telescoping stock.

(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.

(E) A flash suppressor.

(F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches [762 mm].

 

In addition, (Penal Code §12001.5) bans, by definition, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. Defined in Penal Code §12020; a short-barreled shotgun is defined as a firearm (designed, redesigned, or altered) to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled rifle is defined as a semiautomatic, center fire rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

2 & 3. It's a sale/transfer ban, not an ownership ban.

[Iuz the Evil]

33 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I left CA in 2003, so I'm not up to date with their laws. What restrictions are in place? How are their numbers before and after the restrictions? Did they grandfather in any existing weapons?

I live in California and have been following the latest restrictions and court proceedings. It’s a bit more complicated than that, California’s 2013 and later regulations are certainly among the most restrictive in the nation. California’s mortality rate due to firearms is quite low, although mass casualty events continue to occur. 

 

 Separate and apart from the ostensible public safety benefit of these regulations, it is not at all clear they are legally sound. Multiple court cases challenging the California firearms roster (such as Boland v Bonta which just issued a preliminary injunction against the State) and the cases before judge Benitez (assault weapons ban, magazine ban, etc) are very active and expected to resolve in the lower courts by this summer. The 9th circuit may overturn those rulings, I would guess. Then it’ll be up to the SCOTUS. The ruling on the Boland case injunction is really an interesting read and focuses specifically on some of the feature restrictions.

 

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64860477/lance-boland-v-robert-bonta/

 

 Then there’s the firearms law modeled after the Texas abortion ban. It’s every bit the legal abomination as Texas’s law, for the same reasons. AG Bonta, who is about as anti firearms as you can imagine, declined to defend it. The Governor is choosing to do so with his own attorneys, in a move that is reminiscent of his counterparts in other regions of the nation.

 

It’s a complicated issue here, very regional and very polarizing. If you are outside the Urban population centers your are likely to get a very different answer than in the Bay Area or Los Angeles.

[Cygnia]

4 hours ago, Hermit said:

Yeah, the fact the shooter was a young woman goes very much against the norm* . She's yet to be identified as of this post.

 

 

 

* "Norm being a horrible term for school shootings, sorry

Reminds me of Brenda Spencer

[Ranxerox]

7 minutes ago, Cygnia said:

Reminds me of Brenda Spencer

 

Interesting.

[Hermit]

Update, the police are learning/revealing more

 

https://apnews.com/article/nashville-school-shooting-covenant-school-5da45b469ccb6c9533bbddf20c1bfe16

[Dr. MID-Nite]

So they'll use this to push more LGBT hate. Great....

Edited March 28 by Dr. MID-Nite

[Hermit]

1 minute ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

So they'll use this to push more LBGT hate. Great....

 

I had the same thought. 

[Lord Liaden]

Under Utah book banning law, a parent files request to remove Bible from school library due to sexually inappropriate content

[Pattern Ghost]

Joe Biden's Plan to End Gun Violence