Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pattern Ghost]

Surveillance video of the shooter. No shooting aside from shooting out a glass door. Spoilered for discretion, nonetheless:

Spoiler

 

 

I have some thoughts on this, but as the unpleasant ones are foremost, I'm just going to leave this here and get some sleep.

[Cygnia]

Twitter blocked 122 accounts in India at the government’s request

[death tribble]

6 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Surveillance video of the shooter. No shooting aside from shooting out a glass door. Spoilered for discretion, nonetheless:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have some thoughts on this, but as the unpleasant ones are foremost, I'm just going to leave this here and get some sleep.

I have seen the video and it would appear that the shooter must have practiced the moves as that looked competent.

[Pattern Ghost]

12 minutes ago, death tribble said:

I have seen the video and it would appear that the shooter must have practiced the moves as that looked competent.

 

That didn't look competent at all to me. 

[Pattern Ghost]

I just watched the body cam footage (not going to post it here, it's on YT) of the police response. From the time they entered the building, it took just over two minutes to kill the shooter. Good work on the part of responding officers. The shooter was on the second floor, in an open space, apparently shooting out a window, rather than holed up in a classroom this time. They seemed intent on getting killed by police, as one source reported a text sent of the "I'm going to die today, you'll hear about it in the news" variety (paraphrased). 

[Old Man]

54 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

I just watched the body cam footage (not going to post it here, it's on YT) of the police response. From the time they entered the building, it took just over two minutes to kill the shooter. Good work on the part of responding officers. The shooter was on the second floor, in an open space, apparently shooting out a window, rather than holed up in a classroom this time. They seemed intent on getting killed by police, as one source reported a text sent of the "I'm going to die today, you'll hear about it in the news" variety (paraphrased). 

 

The body cam video shows the officers passing the (pixelated) body of one of the victims, the 9-year-old girl who supposedly pulled the fire alarm to warn her classmates, and got killed for her trouble.

[DShomshak]

11 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Joe Biden's Plan to End Gun Violence

Given that the Republican Party has not and does not show the slightest interest in curving gun violence... yeah, that's a precondition for any other plan.

 

As with abortion, this is a culture war that cannot be resolved by reason because it involves fundamental issues of worldview and identity. It can only be resolved by raw political power. Democrats need to attain sufficient control of government at every level that they can say, "We are doing this because we want to do this. We do not have to care who disagrees."

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pattern Ghost]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

 

As with abortion, this is a culture war that cannot be resolved by reason because it involves fundamental issues of worldview and identity.

 

Not to be contrarian, but I didn't see much reason there. It looked like Biden's staff just puked up every idea the Democrats have come up with over the last twenty-five years or so, including imaginary technologies. Seems like Biden didn't actually "plan" anything, or put any thought into it, TBH.

 

Not to mention: The dems can take control of Congress, but they have a Supreme Court who is going to shoot down almost anything they pass.

 

To solve these issues -- and I'm not discounting gun legislation here -- they need to come up with something that's actually practical and passes constitutional muster, and work across the aisle. Which isn't happening with the current and apparently unceasing extreme polarization of our political parties.

 

The only alternative is that they play the long game and change the public opinion on private firearms ownership, so that they can eventually have the numbers to amend the constitution. Which is what they're doing. I'm sure they're aware of the impracticality of most of their proposals, but by inventing a new language around firearms, they can slowly turn the public opinion on firearms over a few generations. They only left off one motto there: "Guns are doubleplus ungood."

 

ETA: That cultural shift may ultimately be a good thing, but not if the root causes of violence aren't also addressed. I'd like to hear more actionable near term solutions along with the usual rhetoric.

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Pattern Ghost

[Lord Liaden]

3 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

The only alternative is that they play the long game and change the public opinion on private firearms ownership, so that they can eventually have the numbers to amend the constitution. Which is what they're doing. I'm sure they're aware of the impracticality of most of their proposals, but buy inventing a new language around firearms, they can slowly turn the public opinion on firearms over a few generations. They only left off one motto there: "Guns are doubleplus ungood."

 

 

I've been saying this for many years. The root of the problem isn't guns, although multiplying guns exacerbates it. The root is a gun culture that glorifies and romanticizes guns, links them with masculinity, and normalizes them as a way to deal with all sorts of social problems. Gun culture needs the same kind of advertising campaign as smoking, drinking and driving, wearing seat belts. Make it so that everyone calls out irresponsible handling of guns and makes that behavior socially unacceptable.

[Pattern Ghost]

6 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I've been saying this for many years. The root of the problem isn't guns, although multiplying guns exacerbates it. The root is a gun culture that glorifies and romanticizes guns, links them with masculinity, and normalizes them as a way to deal with all sorts of social problems. Gun culture needs the same kind of advertising campaign as smoking, drinking and driving, wearing seat belts. Make it so that everyone calls out irresponsible handling of guns and makes that behavior socially unacceptable.

 

Here's the thing: Most of that is benign. The vast, vast majority of gun owners or participants in "gun culture" are harmless. The problem is that many of them are profoundly stupid, but they are mostly harmless. Getting rid of gun culture is only necessary if you want tighter restrictions on firearms. (Which may be a useful thing. Canada's own model isn't too onerous. It's just a tiny bit far for me, but not shabby.) If you eradicated gun culture, you won't have addressed the root problem that drives these violent crimes.

 

The mass shooter events are people who are either radicalized or deeply disturbed on some level that goes much deeper than you describe. And that's only a small fraction of gun deaths in this country. The vast majority of gun violence is economically driven, and criminal on criminal (with innocents often caught between). De-stigmatizing mental health care, effective use of red flag and involuntary psych admission laws (like California's 5150 code), and public education for spotting signs of this level of untreated anger or depression are what will help prevent a shooter like this latest from taking action. We also need to do much, much more to curb gang violence, on so many levels: both in gang interventions (teaching them not to murder each other), gang diversions (protecting children from getting forced into gangs), killing the drug and human trafficking trades, and providing real economic opportunities to every one of our communities . . . and probably more. It's a big task.

 

One other thing that might help, that I may only see get worse in my lifetime, is if our freaking leaders quit acting like children and started getting along well enough to do their basic job.

[Lord Liaden]

Again, PG, we keep talking past each other. The issue isn't binary. At no point have I advocated eradicating gun culture. (TBH I wouldn't be sad if that happened, but I know it won't.) But AFAICT most of the "benign" gun users in the US are passively tolerant when it comes to those who aren't, the ones who strut around and posture with their guns in fake army fatigues, put their entire family holding rifles on their Christmas cards, brag about and threaten what they'll do if they get whichever group they hate in their sights. The ones who aren't trained in when not to shoot, don't securely store their weapons, use them to intimidate those they disagree with, want teachers and even children carrying guns into their schools. The ones who are indoctrinating their children with the same attitudes. The majority of them may turn out to be harmless, but that attitude smooths the path for those who are bullied, frightened, frustrated or desperate, to see a gun as a legitimate, acceptable way to get respect, recognition, and redress. The reason there's far less per capita gun violence in my country than yours isn't lack of guns, we have guns. It's that it doesn't occur to most of us that we need or want guns to make us strong or secure.

 

Responsible guns owners like yourself need to stand up and tell the irresponsible ones to back off and shut up, to start acting like adults. You're their peers, the only ones they'll listen to. You have to start organizing yourselves the way the gun liberalization crowd do, and lobby your representatives like they do to change the messaging around guns. If you really are the majority you can exert peer pressure to alter the gun culture to match your own attitude. We've seen that kind of campaign have a substantial impact on collective behaviour time after time in our own lifetimes.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Pattern Ghost]

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Responsible guns owners like yourself need to stand up and tell the irresponsible ones to back off and shut up, to start acting like adults.

 

Again, you're talking about the profoundly stupid portion of the population of gun owners. They won't be swayed by me or you. Only generational change will get rid of that crowd, or reduce them. And, again, they aren't really the root problem. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pattern Ghost

[Lord Liaden]

Fair enough. I want to respond, but I think if I do we'll both just get more and more entrenched. "Agree to disagree" sounds like a reasonable conclusion. But I do want to thank you for your thoughtful and respectful debate.

[Pattern Ghost]

No worries, LL. That last post was pretty rushed, b/c I realized I had to go pick up my wife from her commute. Maybe I can better clarify my position:

It's not so much that we need to worry about the Walter Mitty types. They aren't the ones actually putting this perception of guns that you're concerned about into the heads of the shooters. That's a wider cultural problem. It's a problem with glorification of violence in the media. It's a problem of these shooters always becoming a national story (not an easy one to solve.) As for the dummies, I think it's a bad assumption that the responsible gun owners don't make an effort to educate them.

 

Go to thehighroad.org. It's a well-moderated gun forum that makes an effort to present responsible information. Read through the sticky posts by the moderators. Read responses to some of the threads there where someone is in need of guidance. There will always be people giving sound advice, like clearing out of an area and helping others evacuate during a mass shooting, and there will always be a few young bucks (or old dummies) saying that they're not cowards, they'd go take on the shooter, yada yada yada. It's the same old refrain. We've had that dichotomy so long that it's a trope in many genres of fiction, like Westerns.

 

It's not like the responsible, intelligent people don't try. It's that we exist on a bell curve. There's only so much you can do to combat the environment someone grows up in and is exposed to constantly. There's only so much you can do to combat tribalism and emotion-driven thinking. So, as much as I detest the Orwellian approach that's currently en vogue, I'm beginning to wonder if it might have utility. I'd much rather try real solutions in the meantime, though.

 

I don't think we stand that far apart here, LL. You're a good guy. I'm . . . well, I'm me. We're just coming at it from different perspectives. Which is kind of nice, as it promotes thinking.

 

 

[unclevlad]

10 hours ago, death tribble said:

I have seen the video and it would appear that the shooter must have practiced the moves as that looked competent.

 

I agree with PG.  It looks like moves from a first person shooter...and not from a good gamer playing.  

 

The entire incident also does suggest she was trying to get herself killed to me.  No rush, no intent to hide at all.   

[Pattern Ghost]

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

The entire incident also does suggest she was trying to get herself killed to me.

 

It seems like she went directly to the upstairs window and shot whoever she could along the way, so that she could engage the police when they arrived. The intent was definitely suicide. She left messages to that effect shortly before going in.

[DShomshak]

5 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Not to be contrarian, but I didn't see much reason there. It looked like Biden's staff just puked up every idea the Democrats have come up with over the last twenty-five years or so, including imaginary technologies. Seems like Biden didn't actually "plan" anything, or put any thought into it, TBH.

 

??

 

<Looks again>

 

OH. Sorry, when I clicked on the link, I only saw the fundraiser page come up. I didn't realize there was another page behind it!

 

I'm not going to bother reading that page, because I don't think it actually matters. I take your word for it that most gun owners are rational and responsible. (They included my late brother-in-law, one of the more intelligent and even-tempered people I've known.) But I also take your word for it that a fraction are either profoundly stupid or operating so far beyond the bounds of what I consider rational that persuasion and social pressure will not work.

 

I am not willing to shrug and say, "Well, better that ten massacres take place than one respectable citizen be denied to tools to commit massacres." The crazies must be disarmed. But changing that status quo requires winning elections. Lots of elections, for a long time, until a SCOTUS can be appointed to deliver the results that people like me want. And winning elections requires money. So... fundraising is the core of any plan to curb gun violence. Without it, nothing else can happen.

 

Which is as far as I'll carry the argument, because I'm gagging at my own cynicism. Even after editing out the most jaundiced passages.

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited March 29, 2023 by DShomshak

[Pattern Ghost]

39 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

I am not willing to shrug and say, "Well, better that ten massacres take place than one respectable citizen be denied to tools to commit massacres."

 

And do you think that's what I'm saying? 

 

ETA: Not to be confrontational: I just hope you don't think that's what I'm saying. I wrote that while distracted by pain.  The thing about the "Biden plan" that annoyed  me was just that it was a whole lot of nonsense measures. I'm about as sick of these events as anyone. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pattern Ghost

[unclevlad]

45 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

I am not willing to shrug and say, "Well, better that ten massacres take place than one respectable citizen be denied to tools to commit massacres."

 

12 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

And do you think that's what I'm saying?

 

No.  It does, however, appear to be the attitude of those Republican politicians who will never consider anything to stop the massacres.

[Pattern Ghost]

5 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

No.  It does, however, appear to be the attitude of those Republicans who will never consider anything to stop the massacres.

 

Thanks. 

 

I'm frankly getting sick of these shootings. If we banned semi-auto centerfire rifles outright -- flat out ban, no grandfather clause BS, no concessions -- I'm not sure I'd be too strongly opposed at this point. If a few million responsible people had to lose some of their weapons and it meant one kid's life would be spared, that'd be a fair trade.

 

On the other hand: There had damned well be other equally strong measures going into place at the same time that more directly prevent the killings. God knows what mischief a trip to your local hardware store or car rental place can produce*, so you'd better be taking a hard line on implementing other useful measures as well.

 

*ETA: Then again, most of these killers are low skill morons, so depriving them of their easiest tools may be pretty effective.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pattern Ghost

[unclevlad]

There have been gas attacks and bombings, but those typically have been carried out by terrorist groups.  Not all, to be sure;  there was Oklahoma City and the Boston Marathon attack...terrorist there, but not a group.    

 

Guns are just SO easy to acquire, that's one of the big problems.  They require no skill* to become lethal;  they are lethal when you get them.  Bombs or chemical attacks require some skill, and carry some risk of either premature activation or NO activation.  

 

*it requires some practice to shoot properly, to be sure, but that's something almost anyone can pick up easily.  Can't say that about making a pipe bomb.

 

A problem with trying to de-glamorize guns is that it'll be wildly unpopular with the same groups that won't consider gun restrictions.  There've been 2 hard-core, hard-scare public service campaigns...against smoking, and against DUI.  There have been significant reductions in both.  Seems like, hey, we could make some "a gun is not a toy" type ads, and come to think, I do remember an ad along these lines, where a kid got a gun, played with it, and...yeah.  But that's the only one I can recall offhand.  TONS of anti-smoking.  DUI ads from state groups, MADD, SADD.  No one is in favor of drunk drivers, and someone else smoking is largely viewed now as an Odious Personal Habit.  Gun messages will draw reprisals, and shift viewers away from shows, networks, or services...the Strict 2A types will lock in with Fox News et al, and likely streaming services for their football (the last hope of the networks before they disappear.) 

[Pattern Ghost]

59 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

There have been gas attacks and bombings, but those typically have been carried out by terrorist groups.

 

To be honest, that wasn't the line I was thinking along, though certainly fertilizer bombs are one possibility. Probably best not to go into it too far though.

 

59 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

There've been 2 hard-core, hard-scare public service campaigns...against smoking, and against DUI.  There have been significant reductions in both. 

 

I'm not sure about DUIs, but smoking is back up among the younger crowd, or so I heard. I think we now have a generation of teens and young adults who don't really remember the gross out anti-smoking campaigns that well. The screen-raised kids of today certainly won't have to see them.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pattern Ghost

[MrWolf]

I wish I had good answers/suggestions for avoiding... such things.  I suspect it will take all sorts of steps that eventually gel together to reduce the numbers.  Not every country on earth has such events.  So... why is that?  /rhetorical?

[Joe Walsh]

There's an article out about Wyrmwood Gaming (makers of high-end gaming furniture, etc.) that goes beyond the recent sexual assault allegations:

https://gizmodo.com/wyrmwood-gaming-doug-costello-bobby-downey-1850237181

Quote

Over the course of this investigation io9 spoke to nearly fifty sources, including current and former employees, who shared stories that included allegations of rampant misogyny, bullying, dangerous working conditions, and sexual harassment and assault.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by GM Joe

[DShomshak]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

No.  It does, however, appear to be the attitude of those Republican politicians who will never consider anything to stop the massacres.

What UncleVlad said.

 

@PG, I think the gun control plan you gave upthread was reasonable at balancing the rights of the law-abiding with public safety, and might actually work. If a politician offered it, I'd vote for him/her/pronoun of choice.

 

But I also think passing any gun control law, however useless at preventing gun deaths, could nevertheless be useful to get the idea out there that such laws *can* be passed. Again, it's following the model set by anti-abortion activists: Nibble away at the edge of a right in order to make further encroachments thinkable.

 

(Though measures that actually do reduce gun deaths would be preferable to merely "feel good" measures. Also, allocating resources to ATF and other law enforcement so they can actually do their jobs.))

 

As for how we got here... Last year, the radio program Fresh Air interviewed a former gun industry executive who'd written a book ripping into the gun industry. As he told it, gun mnufacturers and the NRA used to market guns as tools for responsible people. Then wackadoodles took over some companies and started peddling conspiracy theories, doomsday prepping and "man card" hypermasculinity. Now, I expect a certain amount of those attitudes were around already -- but the advertising did a lot to normalize them and so encourage their spread.

 

I can try to find the episode if anyone's interested.

 

Dean Shomshak