The State of the Rules

[Hugh Neilson]

What follows starts from another thread.

 

Since 6e is no longer in print, can you point me to where this is included in the in-print and supposedly authoritative 'Champions Complete'? I looked and there is no such info on page 58 (wherein the Dispel power is covered by Champions Complete). I also looked on page 142 of CC -- which covers 'Breaking Things'. As CC is the latest available in-print set of rules and is supposedly 'complete' (per its name), finding no details about use of Dispel for this purpose suggests either something changed between 6e and CC ... or CC is not actually complete (which I have asserted numerous times only to have long-time forum posters insist that it IS complete). Let me know what you find.

First, I've commented a few times that I think rules questions should be answered by reference to current rules. As Hero has indicated the Complete books are the current published iteration of those rules, I think it's fair to think the Rules Board would refer to them. More on that later. That said, however, which "current rules"? Monster Hunters, Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete are all, I think, current, in print versions of the rules.

 

Second, define "complete rules". If 6e is complete, why does it have two Advanced Players Guides and a Martial Arts book, among other crunch? And why does it need a big FAQ if its rules are complete? I think "complete" RPG rules need to be judged on whether they are sufficiently complete to play the game, not whether they answer every possible question about the interaction of the rules. I don't believe any game system can live up to the latter expectation.

 

Finally, why is the most current version of the rules "in print"? If Hero decided to move to a seventh edition, only published online, then that 7th edition would be the most current version of the rules, notwithstanding Hero deciding not to produce physical copies of its .pdf rules.

 

As promised, more on the Rules Board. I would like to see page references to currently published books where relevant. At the same time, I acknowledge that the rules are presented in multiple formats. If the answer is not in CC, but is in FHC or MHI, is it fair for Steve to refer you to that in-print version of the rules for your answer? Perhaps it is in Hero System Martial Arts, or the APG II (assuming these are in print). And the fact they are out of print, but available for sale, also does not invalidate them. If the answers are in the "Advanced 6th Ed Rulebooks", to rename the 6e 2 volume set in light of the rules published in CC, FHC and MHI, then these are valid rules supplements to the "Complete Rules".

 

I note that the discussion of Dispel and Foci on 6er Vol 1 p195 begins "If a character Dispels a power in a Breakable Focus, look at the special effects involved to determine what happens." Isn`t the reasoning of interaction between mechanics based on SFX, common sense and dramatic sense mentioned in CC (and FHC and MHI)? If it is not, then a core element of Hero System has been left out, and they truly are incomplete. Assuming they are, then this discussion in the larger volumes is simply an example of such reasoning, and in no way a rule left out of the smaller volumes.

 

Hero chose to strip these down to the complete rules BY removing sample builds, examples of reasoning from SFX, common sense and dramatic sense, etc. to reduce the rules to ONLY the rules and make the overall package more manageable in size.

[eepjr24]

I prefer the current system of using 6e1 and 6e2, since in my mind they are the most complete rule set currently available for purchase for the Hero System.

 

- E

[massey]

Edit: Sorry, don't know what happened there.

[Christopher]

"Being complete" is a fallacy I can not abide.
And I saw my share of it on games forums. A RPG like a MMO is a itterative process. The only time such a game is "complete" is if it is dead/no longer being worked on. City of Heroes is complete. Wow, SWTOR and the like are not yet and hopefully won't be for quite some time.

The whole premisse is that any future itteration would be a bad sign/thing somehow, wich is in a 180° angle.to what I consider sane thinking*.

 

Personally I consider 6E1 and 6E2 the current rules, more so then the CC books. Mostly because I have the former, not the later.

Also because 6E1+2 can serve a whole host of settings to some degree, rather then only one specific to a slightly better degree. I understand why they choose to make the "...-Comlete" books. It makes total sense from a economic standpoint. Still not worth to buy them if we got the "real books" 6E1+2.

 

That being said, the C-books do have to offer some nice ideas, the same way the APG's have. Afaik CC and the like abolished the whole concept of mind classes - you can affect all minds, unless you limit the powers.

But in the same way 6E books offer information, clarification or even full rules constructs that the Complete books simply lack.

 

*There is just no nice way to put it, so I do not even try.

[Lucius]

Second, define "complete rules". If 6e is complete, why does it have two Advanced Players Guides and a Martial Arts book, among other crunch? And why does it need a big FAQ if its rules are complete? I think "complete" RPG rules need to be judged on whether they are sufficiently complete to play the game, not whether they answer every possible question about the interaction of the rules. I don't believe any game system can live up to the latter expectation.

Excellent point. One rules iteration might be "more complete" in the sense of including a lot more explanations and examples but that does not make another rules iteration "incomplete."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No version of Hero rules has a palindromedary, but I can bring my own palindromedary.

[Hugh Neilson]

I prefer the current system of using 6e1 and 6e2, since in my mind they are the most complete rule set currently available for purchase for the Hero System.

 

 

Personally I consider 6E1 and 6E2 the current rules, more so then the CC books. Mostly because I have the former, not the later.

 

I understand why they choose to make the "...-Comlete" books. It makes total sense from a economic standpoint. Still not worth to buy them if we got the "real books" 6E1+2.

"Available for purchase"? In .pdf, I suppose. But 5er is also still available in the online store, so it remains available as well. And the Complete books are the current state of the rules, as I believe Jason has stated on one occasion on the forums. To me, that makes them "real books". I still cling to my two volumes of 6e.

 

In my view, however, the Rules Question Board should be accessible to someone who bought Hero for the first time at his FLGS and has a question. That's not the current state of the rules board. When a MHI buyer posts a question and is referred to books he did not buy, and which he is not supposed to require to play the game, I think that's a problem.

[Hyper-Man]

What is your desired result here Hugh?

 

Is it..

To get Derek or Michael to answer CC or FHC specific rules questions?

I think it would be more likely for Steve to stop answering rules questions which would be sad.

 

or..

To get Jason to acknowledge that 6e1&2 are 'more' official than CC and FHC?

What financial incentive is there for him to do this?

I'd love to see 6e1&2 offered in POD format but it's very likely that a profitable price would still be too high for the marketplace. And doing so would undercut the future sales of CC and FHC of which there are considerable printed copies still in stock.

 

HM

[dmjalund]

have a searchable online rules database

[Hyper-Man]

have a searchable online rules database

 

Sooner or later that is where the industry is likely headed. To do so without giving away the farm (the Hero System rules) would require a subscription model of some sort that would not be cheap to implement up front.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

 "Available for purchase"? In .pdf, I suppose. But 5er is also still available in the online store, so it remains available as well. And the Complete books are the current state of the rules, as I believe Jason has stated on one occasion on the forums. To me, that makes them "real books". I still cling to my two volumes of 6e.

 

In my view, however, the Rules Question Board should be accessible to someone who bought Hero for the first time at his FLGS and has a question. That's not the current state of the rules board. When a MHI buyer posts a question and is referred to books he did not buy, and which he is not supposed to require to play the game, I think that's a problem.

Print is rather out at the moment, honestly. I greatly prefer PDF because it is easily searchable (important when you have close to 1,000 pages of material to search), portable, less expensive and easy to quote pieces for reference. 

 

You are welcome to your view, everyone is. Mine is stated above. 

 

- E

[Christopher]

"Available for purchase"? In .pdf, I suppose. But 5er is also still available in the online store, so it remains available as well. And the Complete books are the current state of the rules, as I believe Jason has stated on one occasion on the forums. To me, that makes them "real books". I still cling to my two volumes of 6e.

The complete books were a neccesity for one reason, and printing them is not one of them.

There will be print runs of any book if demand is just high enough, as evidenced by the PDF sales.

 

Thier purpose was simple:

In PDF or Print, 6E1, 6E2 and a setting book are plain to much to buy for a beginner. And they are not even enough to fully play in a setting.

If those 3 books had been the Players Guide, Gamemasters Guide and a Monster book it would have been a better combo. But stll to expensive at thier current rate.

 

A side purpose was also provide a fallback but adaptable setting to write adventures for.

In D&D Spellslots can be a integral part of the Adventure. In Shadowrun so can Essesnce loss. People that write adventures need those setting affordances.

Both motivations can be hard to impossible to translate to Hero, without just making a inferior copy of the game system first.

 

With the complete books adventure writers now have a somewhat reliable setting to write adventures against.

[Ninja-Bear]

PDF are fun and games until you break your electronic device. I still feel better with a hard copy but that just might a personal choice.

[Surrealone]

Print is rather out at the moment, honestly. I greatly prefer PDF because it is easily searchable (important when you have close to 1,000 pages of material to search), portable, less expensive and easy to quote pieces for reference. 

 

You are welcome to your view, everyone is. Mine is stated above. 

 

- E

Print is still very much 'IN', as most gamers tend to prefer printed materials for whatever reason.  This very forum has threads devoted to print on demand of Hero System PDFs ... as well as threads like this one: The presence of both should be a solid indicator as to the format most seem to prefer.

 

Me ... I like having both PDF and printed material.

[steriaca]

Print is still very much 'IN', as most gamers tend to prefer printed materials for whatever reason. This very forum has threads devoted to print on demand of Hero System PDFs ... as well as threads like this one: The presence of both should be a solid indicator as to the format most seem to prefer.

 

Me ... I like having both PDF and printed material.

I also like real, dead paper editions. The only advantage of PDF is the cheep price. The disavantage, the cost of printing it to solid medium.

[ghost-angel]

The current edition of the rules are the Sixth Edition;

 

Be that in the form of the Character Creation/Combat & Adventuring 2-volume set; Champions Complete; Fantasy Complete; Monster Hunter International; or Narosia: Sea Of Tears.

 

All of these books contain complete rules within their pages, some more comprehensive, some more specifically oriented to the material at hand. All of them say "Hero System Sixth Edition" on the back cover.

 

The argument quoted in the OP is a tired, misguided, and incorrect, argument regarding "the current in print rules" as they stand.

 

(as for me, I don't have any more space for gaming books, the record collection is chewing it up slowly, and I prefer electronic gaming books these days, as it also means I can always have all my books at the gaming table with me.)

[Surrealone]

All of these books contain complete rules within their pages, some more comprehensive, some more specifically oriented to the material at hand. All of them say "Hero System Sixth Edition" on the back cover.

 

The argument quoted in the OP is a tired, misguided, and incorrect, argument regarding "the current in print rules" as they stand.

 

Champions Complete does NOT contain the complete rules within its pages.  Search these forums and you'll find numerous posts about CC where table references have been noted as missing, items in 6e power description text was eliminated (missed?) within CC power description text, etc.  Yet CC is what's available for new players to buy in print -- which is what gamers tend to have a penchant for consuming. 

 

You may consider the issue "tired, misguided, and incorrect", but the facts do not support your assertion that 'all of these books contain the complete rules'; instead, that statement of yours is what is "tired, misguided, and incorrect".  The fact that others seem to desire a unified and definitive approach to the rules that are deemed the latest/authoritative/referenceable material ... suggests I'm not alone in my perspective.

 

Perhaps Jason and Steve need a more community-centric approach, because right now Aaron pushes what he's incented to push (the 'Completes') while Steve answers questions using what he's incented to push (6e v1&2) ... while the community gets stuck in the middle and new players who bought one of the 'Completes' have the potential to come here, ask rules questions, get a reference to material they didn't buy, and wonder where the hell they can buy it in printed form.  I don't know how you can so readily ignore that problem... or defend the causes of it.  (HINT: There are two of them and they both have first names, surnames, and divergent agendas which they apparently will not bother to rectify/unify -- and it has this community caught squarely in the crossfire.)

[Hyper-Man]

Champions Complete does NOT contain the complete rules within its pages.  Search these forums and you'll find numerous posts about CC where table references have been noted as missing, items in 6e power description text was eliminated (missed?) within CC power description text, etc.  Yet CC is what's available for new players to buy in print -- which is what gamers tend to have a penchant for consuming. 

 

You may consider the issue "tired, misguided, and incorrect", but the facts do not support your assertion that 'all of these books contain the complete rules'; instead, that statement of yours is what is "tired, misguided, and incorrect".  The fact that others seem to desire a unified and definitive approach to the rules that are deemed the latest/authoritative/referenceable material ... suggests I'm not alone in my perspective.

 

Perhaps Aaron and Steve need a more community-centric approach, because right now Aaron pushes what he's incented to push (the 'Completes') while Steve answers questions using what he's incented to push (6e v1&2) ... while the community gets stuck in the middle and new players who bought one of the 'Completes' have the potential to come here, ask rules questions, get a reference to material they didn't buy, and wonder where the hell they can buy it in printed form.  I don't know how you can so readily ignore that problem... or defend the causes of it.  (HINT: There are two of them and they both have first names, surnames, and divergent agendas which they apparently will not bother to rectify/unify -- and it has this community caught squarely in the crossfire.)

 

Who is this Aaron you are referring to?

 

Also, did you read my previous post up thread?

 

HM

[Tasha]

Do you mean Jason and Steve? The only Aaron that had anything to do with writing Champions Material passed away a few years ago. He was more of a "here's how you build a strong RP campaign" kind of guy and less of a rules person. Perhaps you are thinking of him because of the upcoming Strike Force Campaign guide (which was Aaron's original campaign).

 

You put so much energy into this crusade of yours. It's very clear that Steve isn't going to change his mind (remember he gets NOTHING for posting rule clarifications here). I don't know what the issue about setting up PoD for 6e1 and 6e2 is, but it probably boils down to it costing money that the company doesn't have to spend. So you aren't going to get anything posting all of this storm and stress, but ulcers (the rest of us get headaches from your posts about this) . You have so many posts about this issue that you have not only killed the horse you are beating, but I think that corpse is totally destroyed. I would hazard a guess that Steve and Jason are as aware of your concerns as we are.

I guess you can keep beating the dead horse or you can be part of the solution. The solution is do what many of us do here, answer questions. Include page numbers from Champions Complete.

I know that you keep saying that there are things missing from Champions Complete ie something about missing tables. I find those rules seem to be pretty darned complete. They are missing some explanations that are in 6e1 and 6e2, but they have the core of the rules. Start an Errata thread on Champions Complete, lets see if we can find the problems and perhaps they will be fixed in a future edition. 
 

[Surrealone]

Who is this Aaron you are referring to?

 

Also, did you read my previous post up thread?

 

HM

Good catch, it was a brain fart on my part.  I thought the name 'Jason' but for whatever reason I erroneously typed Aaron (as in Allston, R.I.P.)  Hey, it's late ... and I'm not caffeinated.  I've fixed it, above...

 

As for your posts above -- I did read them.  You seem to see an either/or approach for Steve and Jason -- and I keep wondering why they can't put their heads together and find the middle ground that serves both their interests and those of the community.  The dichotomy promulgated by their actions is tiresome.  We wouldn't have this problem if the two would converse, decide/declare what is the latest authoritative version, ensure it's in print, and answer questions using whatever it is.

 

What's so tough about that?  I imagine most people deal with less complicated problems at work on a daily basis...

 

 

 

You put so much energy into this crusade of yours. It's very clear that Steve isn't going to change his mind (remember he gets NOTHING for posting rule clarifications here). I don't know what the issue about setting up PoD for 6e1 and 6e2 is, but it probably boils down to it costing money that the company doesn't have to spend. So you aren't going to get anything posting all of this storm and stress, but ulcers (the rest of us get headaches from your posts about this) . You have so many posts about this issue that you have not only killed the horse you are beating, but I think that corpse is totally destroyed. I would hazard a guess that Steve and Jason are as aware of your concerns as we are.

 

I guess you can keep beating the dead horse or you can be part of the solution. The solution is do what many of us do here, answer questions. Include page numbers from Champions Complete.

 

I know that you keep saying that there are things missing from Champions Complete ie something about missing tables. I find those rules seem to be pretty darned complete. They are missing some explanations that are in 6e1 and 6e2, but they have the core of the rules. Start an Errata thread on Champions Complete, lets see if we can find the problems and perhaps they will be fixed in a future edition. 

 

 

1. I didn't initiate this thread, so you can retract your statements about crusades, beating horses, and such.
2. Frankly, I found it interesting that someone else seems to agree that we need a definitive set of in-print materials that are used to answer questions, which is why I took time to chime in.  Apparently not everyone gets headaches (like you claim you and others do) on this topic, so perhaps the 'us' versus 'them' attitude about this topic needs to be done away with?
3. Initially you vehemently insisted CC was complete.  I've noted missing things when I've come upon them.  We can't both be right; it's either complete, or it isn't.  Likewise it's either authoritative and referenced as such, or it's not.  The facts only support one of us and your stance on this has certainly softened from insistence on completeness to it now being 'pretty darned complete' ... which isn't the same.  I'm glad you're at least willing to admit it's incomplete.  Will you also admit it's non-authoritative and unreferenced so long as Steve continues to ignore it?  (If Steve was going to turn over the authorial reigns to one of the "5ER five" like Derek, shouldn't he have at least supported him by referencing the new material???)
4. I can't solve the self-interest-driven schism between Jason and Steve; only they can.  I can, however, call attention to it as what appears to be the root cause of why there's a problem being discussed by the community in this very thread. I find it interesting that people other than me (you, HM, etc.) seem to have observed the schism, too.
5. I also find it interesting that rather than call on the causes of the problem to address it, you dislike when attention is drawn to it, you use labels with negative connotations (like 'crusade', 'storm') when someone does it, and you complain of headaches.  The messenger isn't the cause of the problem, you know?
6. Fixing what's wrong with CC won't fix it not being used as a reference by Steve.  Nor will it bring what Steve uses as a reference back into print.  That's the self-interest-driven schism that requires some attention to rectify.  There are only two people who can fix that... and it seems like they have a hatchet to bury or somesuch.

 

You suggest I and others like you should be part of the solution ... which is to answer questions referencing CC.  So let me see if I've got this correct: You expect community members to fill the void created by a problem between Jason and Steve -- instead of the community using a unified voice to call on them to settle it in a way that serves both their interests and the community?  Really???  That's like expecting a country full of people to solve a problem created by past leader and a present one.  The responsible party in such case, would be the current leadership -- and if the past leader is throwing gas on the problem faced by the current leader, then there's some responsibility there, too.

 

That's not a problem for the populace to solve.  Moreover, since the problem seems to be about upside/compensation (or lack thereof) -- where's the populace's compensation for filling a void that neither the past nor present leadership is bothering to solve (based on where their interests reside)? 

[Tasha]

Good catch, it was a brain fart on my part.  I thought the name 'Jason' but for whatever reason I erroneously typed Aaron (as in Allston, R.I.P.)  Hey, it's late ... and I'm not caffeinated.  I've fixed it, above...

 

As for your posts above -- I did read them.  You seem to see an either/or approach for Steve and Jason -- and I keep wondering why they can't put their heads together and find the middle ground that serves both their interests and those of the community.  The dichotomy promulgated by their actions is tiresome.  We wouldn't have this problem if the two would converse, decide/declare what is the latest authoritative version, ensure it's in print, and answer questions using whatever it is.

 

What's so tough about that?  I imagine most people deal with less complicated problems at work on a daily basis...

 

 

 

 

1. I didn't initiate this thread, so you can retract your statements about crusades, beating horses, and such.
2. Frankly, I found it interesting that someone else seems to agree that we need a definitive set of in-print materials that are used to answer questions, which is why I took time to chime in.  Apparently not everyone gets headaches (like you claim you and others do) on this topic, so perhaps the 'us' versus 'them' attitude about this topic needs to be done away with?
3. Initially you vehemently insisted CC was complete.  I've noted missing things when I've come upon them.  We can't both be right; it's either complete, or it isn't.  Likewise it's either authoritative and referenced as such, or it's not.  The facts only support one of us and your stance on this has certainly softened from insistence on completeness to it now being 'pretty darned complete' ... which isn't the same.  I'm glad you're at least willing to admit it's incomplete.  Will you also admit it's non-authoritative and unreferenced so long as Steve continues to ignore it?  (If Steve was going to turn over the authorial reigns to one of the "5ER five" like Derek, shouldn't he have at least supported him by referencing the new material???)
4. I can't solve the self-interest-driven schism between Jason and Steve; only they can.  I can, however, call attention to it as what appears to be the root cause of why there's a problem being discussed by the community in this very thread. I find it interesting that people other than me (you, HM, etc.) seem to have observed the schism, too.
5. I also find it interesting that rather than call on the causes of the problem to address it, you dislike when attention is drawn to it, you use labels with negative connotations (like 'crusade', 'storm') when someone does it, and you complain of headaches.  The messenger isn't the cause of the problem, you know?
6. Fixing what's wrong with CC won't fix it not being used as a reference by Steve.  Nor will it bring what Steve uses as a reference back into print.  That's the self-interest-driven schism that requires some attention to rectify.  There are only two people who can fix that... and it seems like they have a hatchet to bury or somesuch.

 

You suggest I and others like you should be part of the solution ... which is to answer questions referencing CC.  So let me see if I've got this correct: You expect community members to fill the void created by a problem between Jason and Steve -- instead of the community using a unified voice to call on them to settle it in a way that serves both their interests and the community?  Really???  That's like expecting a country full of people to solve a problem created by past leader and a present one.  The responsible party in such case, would be the current leadership -- and if the past leader is throwing gas on the problem faced by the current leader, then there's some responsibility there, too.

 

That's not a problem for the populace to solve.  Moreover, since the problem seems to be about upside/compensation (or lack thereof) -- where's the populace's compensation for filling a void that neither the past nor present leadership is bothering to solve (based on where their interests reside)? 

 

You know we have had this argument before. You seem to think that you should be paid for helping out the community and for helping to keep new players who are interested in this system. I think that getting more people playing my favorite system is reward enough. To get back to the days when I could announce to a group of gamers that I want to run a Hero System based RPG and have enthusiastic new players show up willing to learn a new fun system. So the Upside is a deeper Player/GM pool. That helps everyone out. More players playing means that there is more money coming into the company which means new supplements and reprints of out of print product,

 

1. I call your posts about this subject a crusade because you can be counted on to write a post about how terrible it is that Steve won't answer CC questions that Jason is a terrible person for not reprinting 6e1&2 (or make Steve comment about CC).

 

3. Except for the examples and some of the more fiddly options, Champions Complete IS complete. YOU have come up with vague things about stuff being missing somewhere in the rules, but no page numbers for others to comment/find.

4. I don't think there IS a "schism" between Jason and Steve. Never have gotten that impression from either person. Steve just won't comment about rules he didn't write/edit. Which IS understandable IMHO. 

5. This IS a dead horse and we give to much bandwith to it. 

6. Fixing what you think is wrong with Champions Complete will at the least make those rules tighter and easier to reference. Everytime I have gone looking for a rule it's there in CC. nearly word for word the same rule that appears in the larger volume. You say there are issues, with the rules missing things and referencing stuff that doesn't exist in the rules. That's something that can be fixed first in the PDF and later in the Print rules.

 

I am really sick of talking about this. YOU don't want to do anything except complain and complain. You shoot down everyone who comes up with solutions, you want things your way and nothing else will do. But you bring it up in thread after thread. How much can we beat this poor dead horse?

[Doc Democracy]

I think the big issue here is the use of complete. The name Champions Complete was pretty cool as it was CC and that the book was written to provide a GM with the ability to have all the information necessary to run a champions game. It was also intended to be a more stripped down version of the rules. It is. It does the job intended, it will never have as much detail as the most recent authoritative version of the HERO System.

 

However, everyone will agree (I hope) that Champions Complete does not have every nuance of the rules necessary to be assured that there is no wrinkle unconsidered (this I think is an impossibility and no rulebook will ever manage to be absolutely complete - indeed Champions is notorious for not accommodating absolutes!).

 

What CC does do is give a complete game available in electronic and dead tree formats that keep the game breathing.

 

What Steve does is provide insight into the last version of the HERO System which, despite the significant number of people who dislike the format, still available in PDF.

 

 

Doc

[Simon]

Sigh.  And here we go again.

 

This topic is done.  Hugh is now being moderated (and has been "officially" warned rather than relying on the unofficial route which failed previously).  Surrealone - you're done with this topic and this false crusade you appear to be on with Hugh.  Do not post on it again in these forums.  Is that clear enough?

Now, to the subject at hand -- I'll spell things out for those of you too dense to figure it out on your own (even after others have pointed it out to you):

 

The current ruleset for the Hero System is the Hero System Sixth Edition.  That's it.  That's what it has been since 6E came out.  That's what it says at the top of this site. 

 

Champions Complete (and FHC, etc.) follow 6E rules.  This is a REALLY EASY one for me to comment on, as I did not need to make a single change to HD when the complete series came out BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T CHANGE OR ADD ANY RULES.  They each have omissions from the full 6E rules...because that's the ENTIRE POINT TO THE SERIES -- to include only the rules you need to run the respective genre (or even sub-genre in some cases). Each book states that it is part of the Hero System Sixth Edition rules.  But you, for some moronic reason, cannot seem to grok that.

Champions Complete contains all of the rules you need to run a Champions campaign.  It does not contain all of the rules for 6E -- that's the job of the 6E rulebooks.  Likewise, FHC contains all of the rules you need to run a fantasy campaign.  It also does not contain all of the rules for 6E.  This means that if you are familiar with the full 6E ruleset you may find things that are missing from CC that you would like to include in your campaign. Guess what? You can!  Go for it.  That's your call...but you don't get to make that call for others.  CC contains everything that someone new to the system needs to run their campaign.  Hence the "complete" part of the title.

Steve Long only references the 6E rulebooks because he wrote them...and because they are the "official" rules for the system -- they contain the entirety of the 6E rules (as their respective titles would indicate). Don't like that? Then don't participate in the free and unadvertised service that Steve offers.  It's really that simple.

 

The 6E rulebooks are currently only available in PDF.  Don't like that? Great! Buy the PDF and print your own - it's cheaper than the cost of physical copies.  Think the company should take care of it for you? Great! Save up some serious cash and then talk to the company about investing so that you can have input on that decision.  Just be aware that making a print run means not only paying a printer for a large number of physical copies, but also transporting them from the printer, storing them in a warehouse (since you don't have sales for all of them), paying for said warehouse, arranging for distribution, distributing from the warehouse as distribution sales are made (and paying for shipping again), advertising (since you really don't want physical copies to sit around for long periods of time due to aforementioned rent issues), and finally shipping and labor costs for individual sales.  Kinda makes PDF an understandable choice, no?

So.  If all of this pisses you off, I really do not care -- go somewhere else.  If you feel the need to continue posting on this, I really do not care -- go somewhere else.  If you ignore this advice, I will ensure that you are unable to continue posting in these forums.  Is that clear enough?

[zslane]

The 6E rulebooks are currently only available in PDF.  Don't like that? Great! Buy the PDF and print your own - it's cheaper than the cost of physical copies.

I think the above bears repeating.

 

A lot of folks are unsure if they have "permission" to print their PDFs. Moreover, the myth of the high cost of printing 6e1/6e2 through a POD service persists for some reason (perpetuated mostly by people whose information is considerably out of date). I wish there was a good way to dispel these myths for good.

 

And while we're on the subject, the ease and cost effectiveness of POD leaves open the question as to why Hero Games doesn't make softcover B&W versions of 6e1/6e2 available for purchase from a site like DriveThru or RPGNow. It costs Hero Games nothing to do so, and if those volumes still represent the current rules set, then there is no marketplace confusion issue at play. I am at a complete loss as to why these two books aren't available in B&W softcover print form on a POD basis (where there is no need to maintain physical stock).

 

As for CC and FC being no different from 6e1/6e2 except for simply leaving some explanations/examples out, well, that isn't quite true. There is a conversion file that documents the differences. While they are minor, they are neverthless there, and are still sometimes the source of confusion by newcomers who have CC but see references to things like Classes of Mind or whatever in older 6e support material.

[ghost-angel]

And while we're on the subject, the ease and cost effectiveness of POD leaves open the question as to why Hero Games doesn't make softcover B&W versions of 6e1/6e2 available for purchase from a site like DriveThru or RPGNow. It costs Hero Games nothing to do so, and if those volumes still represent the current rules set, then there is no marketplace confusion issue at play. I am at a complete loss as to why these two books aren't available in B&W softcover print form on a POD basis (where there is no need to maintain physical stock).

 

It's not actually that simple in its entirety. There are formatting & layout issues to consider if DriveThru and RPGNow don't offer the exact same size for which the original 6E documents were formatted for print for... if there's even a 1/4 Difference in one dimension it would be best practice to redo layout to account for it. Which is a money/time investment to get the books done correctly...

[zslane]

I did not have to reformat the 6e1/6e2 PDFs when I sent them to Lulu for POD. I did run them through Acrobat Pro's grayscale conversion command (to avoid the cost of full-color printing) and the "flatten transparency" option, but that took all of about 10 seconds to do. The books came out perfect. I see no reason why the 6e1/6e2 volumes should present any obstacles to deployment to DriveThru/RPGNow.