On 7/25/2018 at 11:56 AM, Lord Liaden said:

 

Perhaps, but not a non-super exclusion. In 4E the Harbinger of Justice could summon guns from a pocket dimension. Several members of the Card Shark organization had low-level superhuman abilities, like One-Eyed Jack and Deadman's Hand. Carnivore was a gene-spliced human-animal hybrid. And so on.

That was my gripe. Look at the build suggestion for Heroes. Any Powers was technological not pure super powers. Yet he had villains that broke that rule. 

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:38 PM, zslane said:

Indeed. To my mind it is more about genre and tone (morally gray comic book vigilantes) than power level. The Six Million Dollar Man, the Bionic Woman, the A-Team, Walker Texas Ranger, James Bond, Mission Impossible, etc. those are all firmly planted in the action adventure genre, with little-to-no gray area between heroes and villains, and so they don't really fit the core "Dark Champions" charter. They belong in an Action Hero genre book instead, IMO.

 

I would put the A Team in the Saturday Morning Cartoon genre

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I would put a palindromedary in a tagline

Dark Champions is on TV right now - it's called Arrow. [rimshot]

Dark Champions suppliments were some of my first cover art, right after i did stuff for a Teenagers From Outer Space cover

 

Hudson City Blues. Cover art, by me)

(found it while putting  my Vast hero collection up on the shelf.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 1:49 AM, A.T.R.A. Mark II said:

Dark Champions is on TV right now - it's called Arrow. [rimshot]

 

Definitely the example I will use to explain the difference between a vigilante and a superhero: "Vigilantes are basically like Arrow, and superheros are more like Flash..."

On 7/7/2019 at 2:27 AM, Jayzon said:

 

Definitely the example I will use to explain the difference between a vigilante and a superhero: "Vigilantes are basically like Arrow, and superheros are more like Flash..."

Or the Difference between Jessica Jones, and Hellcat in the final Season of Jessica Jones.  Both use Similar methods, but one shows restraint now, and the other is confident in their own judgement.

Scott, let me take just a moment to interrupt this thread to say:

 

You, Sir, are extremely talented.  digital painting be _damned_, you've got the good stuff:  you can draw, and do so extremely well!

 

...all that 90's hatching....  and a short deadline.... madness.

I ran a Dark Champions campaign once that fizzled out because while I was picturing something like Batman the Animated Series several of my players made characters too dark for Watchmen.

Dark Champions seems to belong to that 90s-Anti-Hero era more than anything else.  The Rob Liefeld staple of a guy with a buzzcut, 5-o'clock shadow, and angry scowl, heavily muscled arms and 6-pack abs, toting an arsenal of guns while dressed in black and/or camo.  He'll kill the 'villains' but isn't really any better than they are.  The Punisher is the first and best-known example -- and he was supposed to be a Spiderman  villain.  In the 90s (and look at that 1993 publication date!) that was considered Edgy and "mature" when it was really just nihilistic.   Lobo was created as a parody of them, Deadpool started as one, but quickly became the insane 4th-wall destroying clown that made him stand out.

 

The expansion to cover action heroes is a good thing, IMHO. Without it, it would be nigh useless

I think there's still room for vigilante games and Dark Champions type genre but yeah making it a broader setting and genre would be great.  I mean some of Schwarzenegger's films he was basically superheroic in

On 7/22/2018 at 9:34 AM, zslane said:

...it should have been re-branded as Action Hero long ago.

I third this, as long as you spell it Action HERO. The name Dark Champions stinks of the Dork Age of Comics.  It's very edgelordy, and Action HERO  better sums up what Dark Champions exceeds at, is an awesome pun, and brings it in line with Pulp HERO, Fantasy HERO, Star HERO, and Post-Apocalyptic HERO.

 

I half think Champions should be renamed Super HERO, but I know that would never fly with the HERO diehards.

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

I third this, as long as you spell it Action HERO. The name Dark Champions stinks of the Dork Age of Comics.  It's very edgelordy, and Action HERO  better sums up what Dark Champions exceeds at, is an awesome pun, and brings it in line with Pulp HERO, Fantasy HERO, Star HERO, and Post-Apocalyptic HERO.

 

I half think Champions should be renamed Super HERO, but I know that would never fly with the HERO diehards.

Champions was originally called "Superhero" until  it was discovered that Marvel and DC hjointly own the word, which is why "in print"  people with powers and abilities are not referred to as Superheroes, unless they are talking abut marvel and DC characters, so after about a year of playtesting it was renamed Champions.

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Marvel and DC jointly own the word

Copyright laws are broke as ....

Quote

I half think Champions should be renamed Super HERO, but I know that would never fly with the HERO diehards.

 

I take the opposite approach, I think all the other products should be called x Champions.  Star Champions.  Western Champions.  Fantasy Champions.

I much preferred 4th over 5th Dark Champions but one has to realize that Hudson City the Urban Abyss is a masterpiece of writing.

In Dark Champions 5e, there's an intro by Steve Long that explains as a Builder-type of player, he was dissatisfied with the "four-colour "fight them lock them up, they escape, we fight them again" cycle. He created the Harbinger to have a positive effect on the game world (and drive GMs crazy) and then wrote the original Dark Champions as a source book for "dark heroes" like the Harbinger, feeling they had got short shrift in the main Champions book.

 

Well, Steve, I'll see your Harbinger and raise you the Shadow, even without the powers of hypnotism that the radio shows gave him.

 

As Steve Long presented him in books, the Harbinger of Justice is like Batman's level of skill, genius, and obsession, married to the Punisher's mindset and methodology. I would have to pick that over any incarnation of the Shadow.

 

Now, if you would be interested in a Hero homage to the Shadow and his operatives, you ought to check out The Raven and the Midnight Brigade.

Thanks, I'll have to check that out

I was just paging through this, and made me think  about Luke Cage. He's a superhero, but a lot of his enemies are just really skilled assassins. But he also went up against guys in power armor and a few other superhumans.

It's fun arguing genre definitions, isn't it?

On 5/19/2020 at 2:21 PM, DusterBoy said:

It's fun arguing genre definitions, isn't it?

I’ve been meaning to start a topic thread about the trap of Tropes. Power Man is a great example of what is a “Street” Level character?

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve been meaning to start a topic thread about the trap of Tropes. Power Man is a great example of what is a “Street” Level character?

   So was Iron Fist that’s why they paired so well together. Most of Marvel’s “Kung-Fu era” characters work . Shang-Chi, Sons of the Tiger,  Colleen Wing & Misty Knight.  Also the Daredevil & Black Widow team of the ‘70’s are good examples.

16 minutes ago, Tjack said:

   So was Iron Fist that’s why they paired so well together. Most of Marvel’s “Kung-Fu era” characters work . Shang-Chi, Sons of the Tiger,  Colleen Wing & Misty Knight.  Also the Daredevil & Black Widow team of the ‘70’s are good examples.

I would love to run as villains the Red Banner Cult. I can see them at this “level”.

I've got a big stack of 4E books, including Dark Champions.

 

I vacillate between a 'straight' four-color game and a darker vigilante game. It will come down to what players want, no doubt.