Should Villains Be More Powerful Than Heroes?

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, massey said:

 

And then there's the problem that some GMs think that they're award winning mystery writers, and they aren't.  I don't have that problem with my current group, but I can't tell you how many GMs I've played with who either completely leave out important clues, or include so much information that whatever is important gets drowned out, or make mistakes about basic background facts and so lead the players to draw the wrong conclusions.

I’ve found out GMing is that what seems obvious to you may not be obvious to the players.

[drunkonduty]

I go for a mix of villain power levels depending on the arc.

 

It can be fun for the heroes to trounce a bunch of mooks and a few low grade super villains. It lets the players feel that their characters are strong and capable. It's a supers game after all.

 

Other times I'll go for a mega villain. Someone the team has to pull out all the stops for, including good team tactics. It can really ramp up the tension and give the players a chance to go in for some serious melodrama (self-sacrifice, learning to be part of the team, you know the drill.)

 

But my fave is having a group of villains all about the same level as the PCs who can give the heroes a real mixed bag of a fight. These tend to be loooong fights though. Frequently with plenty of chaos and collateral damage.

 

Clearly all the above is just talking about fights. You can challenge the players with mysteries and role play challenges too. And these can, and should, be of various challenge levels just as the above.

 

As an aside: I love when the player (and maybe the character) know who the villain is but can't prove it (yet!) Then they meet at a party. Let the catiness begin!

 

 

 

[steriaca]

There are villains which can be a threat without having much fighting power. Like, say DeArby the Gambler, who is able to remove souls from thoes who lose a gamble to him. In order to get the person there soul back? Win them back.

[Steve]

While it could be quite interesting for some players to have the better part of a gaming session devoted to making opposed rolls for Gambling (Poker) mixed in with shooting dialogue back and forth, most players like the hitting/shooting thing.

 

What can sometimes liven things up is for villains to occasionally exceed their normal power level, or for heroes to be reduced in power because of some villain's scheme and have to deal with foes they would normally laugh at.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I’ve found out GMing is that what seems obvious to you may not be obvious to the players.

 

Well, and what sometimes people are really good at figuring out they can't in a different context.  Its like you shift gears in your head: I'm playing Champions, not Justice, Inc, what's a clue again?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Power Level of villains:

 

I've found over the years it's best to create your villains in such a way as they can be easily adjusted on the fly.  Not only is it easy to over or underestimate your players,  but you learn a lot not just about the characters on their sheets, but how the players _use_ that character, and how effective they are or are not with that character.  This of course extends to the whole group.  You might have a villain prepared that feels or looks like a good match for your players, only to discover toward the end of the arc that this villain is going to mop the floor with the group you're running.  Of course, the reverse is true as well: your players might end up absolutely astounding you with the characters they have created, and your villain doesn't have  a chance.

 

Much easier to prepare both the villain and the plan to ramp him up _and_ down, depending on how things go.

 

Here's another thing that has thwarted me as GM: sometimes the story goes in a different direction, and the players are only following up that first arc "to be good heroes" or some other thing that indicates their hearts aren't quite in it.  That villain shouldn't be a major point anymore.  Don't make him too difficult to get through and let them get back to "the good parts" of your evolving game.

 

Along those same lines, sometimes the story arc itself becomes more complex and more convoluted, and suddenly your villain needs another figure behind him.  Suddenly-- while he should be a competent challenge-- he needn't be the herculean, "master villain-feeling" opponent you had in mind anymore.  Don't sweat it: you already had a plan to change him, so it didn't slow you down a bit.

 

If I can give you a very recent 'frinstance:

 

My youth group just completed their first campaign.  This was originally a short, straight-forward, four-or-five session plot.  An artifact is stolen from a museum and security personnel and the videos show super-powers were involved.  The characters were to make a simple investigation, follow some simple clues, and catch the villain, who gives up (eventually) the "big bad" and his plan to use these artifacts to perform a mind-control ritual that would make him the man-behind-the-man in local and state government, with an eye on the senate.

 

We went nowhere near that.  I mean, we took care of that, but the final conclusion of that story?

 

The characters and a slightly-senile seven-thousand-year-old alien shapeshifter they picked up along the way (who sounded like the guy who plays the duck in Kung Fu Panda-- why do I _do_ that?!) stopped a several super-villains and a mad cult of luchadores from resurrecting an ancient mayan emperor who was known to have so much magical power that he could well have conquered the world. 

 

The adventure doesn't always go where you planned it.  Sometimes it doesn't even come as close as the above example.     Just be prepared to roll with it.

 

 

 

 

Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

 

 

Hope something helps!  

 

 

Duke

 

[TrickstaPriest]

I've always had a more difficult time running games in Champions.  Largely, the 'isolated villain battle' seems to dominate imagination, and it's actually hard to conjure some of the scenarios in mind.  Then again, when I look at the other games I've run, maybe it's them and their mindset (stab and kill?) that is just impacting my ability to run Champions.  Originally I did a much worse job of that than I probably do now...

 

 

Boy, it's hard to find good ways to indirectly encourage my DnD group's overly pragmatic (but not evil!) paladin.  Compared to that, Champions might not be that bad... ?

[Ninja-Bear]

Pamelaisley, just an FYI, Howler in CKC, has gotten a boost in points. She was in 4th, 250!pts (starting character) and I believe in 3rd she was also a starting character level. 

[PamelaIsley]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Pamelaisley, just an FYI, Howler in CKC, has gotten a boost in points. She was in 4th, 250!pts (starting character) and I believe in 3rd she was also a starting character level. 

 

There are a few others that were "promoted" in the 6E books, making them less usable.

 

Talisman has grown and grown, as an example.

[BoloOfEarth]

I tend to use homegrown villains; even when I use existing CU villains, I often rewrite them for personal preference (so my Howler may only bear a slight resemblance to the CU Howler).  And as such, they are often about the same point-level as the PC heroes, and I tend to use roughly the same number of villains as heroes in any given combat.  However, as someone else pointed out, point totals does not necessarily equal combat power level.

 

On a meta level, there are considerably more villains than heroes in my world, but that is partly by design.  My current Champions campaign started shortly after an event where a fair number of superheroes (including entire superhero teams) and numerous supervillains were pulled to another dimension by the Empress of a Billion Dimensions.  Due to the way this was done, a number of the supervillains who disappeared were "replaced" with villains from that other world, and a few heroes (or normal people) were likewise "replaced" with heroes from the other world.  However, individual heroes and hero teams are more likely to work together and to work with government agencies, while villains rarely work together except within their individual teams, and there's much more of a chance of infighting between villains / villain teams.  So (at least IMO) it doesn't matter so much if the world's villains outnumber the world's heroes 3:1, since a group of villains on any given plot isn't likely to outnumber the specific hero team 3:1.

[PamelaIsley]

11 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I tend to use homegrown villains; even when I use existing CU villains, I often rewrite them for personal preference (so my Howler may only bear a slight resemblance to the CU Howler).  And as such, they are often about the same point-level as the PC heroes, and I tend to use roughly the same number of villains as heroes in any given combat.  However, as someone else pointed out, point totals does not necessarily equal combat power level.

 

I'm fond of the Champions in the CU (which is why I want to use the CU) and some of the villains (Gravitar, Howler, GRAB, Utility & Mirage, and a few others in particular).  So I want to use CU villains when I can.  I am going to completely revamp the sheets of some of them, though.  I want to drop basically everyone back into a 300-400 point range and get the DCs and Combat Values under control (some villains have unbelievable OCVs with their main powers). 

 

I love creating new heroes and villains, though.  I have enough ideas, I think, to completely fill up dozens of adventures with NPC heroes and villains.

[Tech]

21 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

This is very true.  And Master Villains and Villain Teams fit in well when you need more serious combat challenges.  (As an aside, when I look at many of the 5E/6E master villain writeups, I just laugh.  These people aren't supervillains.  They are gods.  It's just way out of whack with how I would build a world.)

 

I totally agree. It's way out of whack how I've built the campaign world. Obviously, since the campaign's survived for so long, it's a solid idea.

 

20 hours ago, massey said:

Part of the problem is that the majority of Champions games are not solo hero adventures, while the majority of comic books are.

 

The Joker is less powerful than Batman.  As long as the Joker sticks to his areas of strength, he can be a reasonable opponent for the Bat.  He avoids direct combat unless he has some kind of advantage to even the scales, so he'll always have a secret weapon, or a trap, or some hostages or something to distract Batman.  The conflict usually ends when Batman gets past all the obstacles and is able to confront Joker directly.  When it gets to "punching in the face" time, Batman wins.

 

However, Joker doesn't really scale well when you've got the other members of the Justice League there.  Or other heroes at all, really.  The more heroes involved, the higher the likelihood that somebody is going to engage him in combat before he's ready.  Or avoid his obstacles.  Imagine if Batman was teamed up with Nightcrawler of the X-Men.  Bamf!  Punch!  Fight over.

 

I was in a game where someone tried a Joker-type villain like in the comics. It failed miserably. In general, players don't like their characters stumbling into traps taking damage here & there while the villain keeps getting away. This however, gets away from the discussion of point-totals.

 

K.S. I'm sorry to hear of the 5e situation: the GM should've awarded your character with the son admitting it.

 

I have a range of supervillains to throw at the player characters. I've got supervillains who can take on an entire team & I've got plenty of them who are roughly on equal with the heroes. Now, something I've got, which I see little of around these boards, is a bunch of wimpy villains. These are generally around 200-250 pt villains, with the express purpose of being a threat, yet a threat easily taken care of.

 

 

[Tech]

17 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve found out GMing is that what seems obvious to you may not be obvious to the players.

 

I think anyone who gives any new GMs any advice must tell them this. So, so very true; this includes making villains. Point-totals do not necessarily tell the effectiveness of the villain but I believe this was discussed in another thread.

[PamelaIsley]

4 minutes ago, Tech said:

 

I have a range of supervillains to throw at the player characters. I've got supervillains who can take on an entire team & I've got plenty of them who are roughly on equal with the heroes. Now, something I've got, which I see little of around these boards, is a bunch of wimpy villains. These are generally around 200-250 pt villains, with the express purpose of being a threat, yet a threat easily taken care of.

 

 

Visions of the Zookeeper* just flashed through my mind.

 

*Futurama is awesome.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah power bloat is a bit of a problem in officially published books.  I mean look at what happened to Dr Destroyer over 3 editions.  Thankfully you don't have to use this stuff as printed, and I don't.

[Greywind]

Villains are as powerful as the GM needs them to be for the adventure they are running.

[massey]

One thing I go back and forth on is how much I should stat out a villain's story abilities.

 

For instance, Batman is chasing the Joker through an abandoned toy factory.  Being faster than Mr. J, the Caped Crusader is gaining on him.  Then from the shadows, a booby trap goes off.  Razor sharp playing cards fire out of the walls, requiring Batman to leap out of the way and dive behind a piece of machinery.  One quick explosive batarang later, and the trap is wrecked.  Batman then hears the sound of riotous laughter coming from above.  The Joker is sprinting across a catwalk 50 feet above the factory floor, heading for an open door that leads elsewhere.  As Batman prepares to throw a grappling hook, five goons step out of the shadows, carrying wrenches and clubs.  The Dark Knight sighs and turns to face this new threat.  He'll have to catch up to the Joker later.

 

So, what happened here in game mechanics?  How did the Joker even get up there?  How is he able to move so much faster when nobody is looking at him?

 

There are lots of ways to do this in the game.  Some of them (but these aren't the only options) would include 1)  The D&D technique.  You could plan out the encounter ahead of time, drawing a map of the factory like it was a fantasy dungeon.  Here's the ladder that the Joker will use to get to the catwalk.  Here's where the trap is set.  Here is where the  goons will hide.  Then you just hope that the plan works and the Joker makes it to those locations before Batman catches up to him.  You might charge Joker points for having followers and a base, and if so, this is what he gets.  2)  The hand-wave solution.  You want Joker to get away for now, so he's got whatever he needs to make that happen.  No character sheet modifications necessary.  3)  The genre build.  You actually build it with powers.  Joker has a  VPP, and maybe a Multipower for "villain tricks" as well.  In the VPP he's got a Triggered 3D6 RKA, Indirect, Autofire x5, Area Effect Line attack, representing his trap.  In his villain tricks Multipower he also has Summon: Goons with 1 charge, so he can have backup appear whenever he needs them.  Then he's got a 20" Teleport that only works when the heroes all spend their phases fighting somebody else.

 

Traditionally Champions supplements haven't used a lot of the Genre Build technique.  But part of me likes the idea that this is how characters like the Condiment King can show up to challenge Batman for a (very short) time.  You get some loser (at best a competent normal) who puts on a costume, and they end up being a 250 point or 300 point villain, only because they've got some things that will go their way.

 

Example powers:

 

"Look at that monitor, Batman.  You'll see the damsel in distress is trapped in a room that is filling up with water.  You can catch me or save her, you choice."

--18D6 Mind Control, 1 charge, one command only -- stop what you're doing and save the girl. 

(Too often, players will say things like "I can beat this guy in one phase.  I've got several minutes before she drowns."  This puts a game mechanic to the hero's choice dilemma.)

 

"It looks like the guard assigned to his cell was on his payroll.  'Officer Johnson' wasn't even his real name, just a fake identity.  Somebody hacked into the computer and changed the duty assignments."

--20" Teleport, megascale, 1 charge, only to escape from prison/jail, doesn't work once the hero knows to look for it.

 

 

 

Stuff like that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Too often, players will say things like "I can beat this guy in one phase.  I've got several minutes before she drowns."  This puts a game mechanic to the hero's choice dilemma

 

Well its a reaction to seeing that ploy used so often and knowing damn well the hero could deal with the bad guy before the hostage is in real trouble.  Players have seen it all and know how it could be done better, so they will damn well not fall for the same stupid mistakes.

[massey]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well its a reaction to seeing that ploy used so often and knowing damn well the hero could deal with the bad guy before the hostage is in real trouble.  Players have seen it all and know how it could be done better, so they will damn well not fall for the same stupid mistakes.

 

Sure, but depending on the genre, maybe that's not what they're supposed to do.  Anyway, the example power was only to illustrate the kinds of things I was talking about -- stuff that villains do regularly to oppose heroes, but that Champions historically hasn't included on the character sheet.

[Steve]

4 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I tend to use homegrown villains; even when I use existing CU villains, I often rewrite them for personal preference (so my Howler may only bear a slight resemblance to the CU Howler).  And as such, they are often about the same point-level as the PC heroes, and I tend to use roughly the same number of villains as heroes in any given combat.  However, as someone else pointed out, point totals does not necessarily equal combat power level.

 

On a meta level, there are considerably more villains than heroes in my world, but that is partly by design.  My current Champions campaign started shortly after an event where a fair number of superheroes (including entire superhero teams) and numerous supervillains were pulled to another dimension by the Empress of a Billion Dimensions.  Due to the way this was done, a number of the supervillains who disappeared were "replaced" with villains from that other world, and a few heroes (or normal people) were likewise "replaced" with heroes from the other world.  However, individual heroes and hero teams are more likely to work together and to work with government agencies, while villains rarely work together except within their individual teams, and there's much more of a chance of infighting between villains / villain teams.  So (at least IMO) it doesn't matter so much if the world's villains outnumber the world's heroes 3:1, since a group of villains on any given plot isn't likely to outnumber the specific hero team 3:1.

 

Interesting. I had something like this happen in my own campaign about a year or so ago.

 

Do you maintain a website for your campaign?

[Killer Shrike]

On the subject of Joker-like villains, I ran the Champions Battlegrounds adventure with the Black Harlequin years ago and it was very Joker-esque. Really confounded the heroes. Very fun adventure, for us. 

 

When the players finally managed to get past all the deathtraps and hone in on BH himself, it was over very quickly and they accidentally killed him while he tried to escape. Oops. 

 

They expected him to be a viable toe to toe combat threat in line with the lethality of his traps, and were quite surprised when he pancaked on the ground and went splat. In game there was some wringing of hands and moral wrangling, but out of character the players got a good laugh out it.

 

Trappy tricky villains just require a lot of set up and planning to pull off their dastardly deeds, and thus a GM trying to employ one must put in the set up and planning on their behalf. It's time consuming, and doesn't always work, but when it does its a lot of fun.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Sure, but depending on the genre, maybe that's not what they're supposed to do. 

 

To be sure, its a valid approach.  But I would prefer GMs be better at writing than someone cranking out 8 comics a month for peanuts.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, massey said:

 

Sure, but depending on the genre, maybe that's not what they're supposed to do.  Anyway, the example power was only to illustrate the kinds of things I was talking about -- stuff that villains do regularly to oppose heroes, but that Champions historically hasn't included on the character sheet.

Things that get too genre specific make my hackles rise. Games aren’t comics and vice versa. Players have a lot of experience, and often learn from their mistakes. 

 

Way before Dark Champions, costumes in many local games slid into Kevlar and Army Surplus XD

 

as to the first question,  What ever happened to the 200 point villain, essentially a talented normal with one or two blockbuster powers and a little intelligence?  A good one hit wonder can screw up the Heroes best plans on occasion. 

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, Steve said:

 

Interesting. I had something like this happen in my own campaign about a year or so ago.

 

Do you maintain a website for your campaign?

 

Sorry, no.  I've posted some quotes on these boards, but nothing else online.

[BoloOfEarth]

4 hours ago, massey said:

Too often, players will say things like "I can beat this guy in one phase.  I've got several minutes before she drowns."  This puts a game mechanic to the hero's choice dilemma.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well its a reaction to seeing that ploy used so often and knowing damn well the hero could deal with the bad guy before the hostage is in real trouble.  Players have seen it all and know how it could be done better, so they will damn well not fall for the same stupid mistakes.

 

Then the villain should know how it could be done better as well. 

 

"Did I mention that monitor is on a taped delay?  (hits fast forward to show the room filling even faster and covering the hostage's head)"  Or maybe "To add a sense of emergency, in a few seconds explosives will soon seal off the only route to the damsel.  Tick, tock, hero..."  Or my fave:  "Before you think of taking me down first, be aware there's a device in the room that will trigger explosives to kill her instantly if it doesn't continue to hear my dulcet tones or contagious laughter."  (Then you can have the villain giving a running commentary as the hero saves the hostage... after first disabling the explosives.)

 

Of course, this is all pretty much moot against the typical team of heroes.  But against a solo hero, this type of situation can still be done if the villain puts some decent thought into it.  And the GM needs to stand firm and follow through on whatever threat is made, if the player still chooses to take on the villain before saving the hostage.