Struggling to Pick Up the Game

[Shoug]

I’ve been admiring Hero System from a distance for some time now. Over the course of a few years, I’ve started and stopped reading the rulebooks, occasionally intending on “Buckling down to RTFM cover-to-cover this time, then I’ll know it!.” Each time I stopped because I couldn’t maintain interest, gleaning only the most elementary understanding of the rules of the game.

I recently tried kickstarting a game with my friends by reading both a 2 and 3 page version of the rules and then just finding premade characters on the internet to do a mock-combat with. The idea was this: after being forced to look up things we were seeing on the character sheets enough times, we’d have a high enough resolution gestalt of the game to start digging around and making our own characters (and playing quickly and smoothly). We were using these premade character sheets:

• • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/combine_overwatch.html

  • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/antlion_soldier.html

  • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/weapons.html

We acknowledge the possibility that these character sheets are the overwrought brainchildren of a theory-wanking grognard, and might feature extravagantly avant garde applications of the rules that are satisfying only to the “clever” guy who thought of them. It’s a scenario we hadn’t much opportunity to avoid, so we opted to treat them as fine examples of character sheets. Nonetheless, there are certain concepts that are used on these character sheets that we can’t find anything about by CTRL-Fing through each of the core rulebooks. The shotgun’s damage is “reduced by range”, which is a string that we just literally couldn’t find in the rulebooks, and the pulse rifle utilizes “autofire” which we couldn’t find a core definition for (everything we found was an explanation of how “autofire” works for specific Powers and how it affects the strength requirements of melee weapons, it wasn’t listed at all underneath “Firearms”). Most of the terms we searched could be found in either books' glossary, but those definitions were often too abbreviated and none of them directed us to a page that would give us the full scoop. In addition to this, when we tried to use our best judgement about how these rules should be applied, we couldn't find a way to produce a result that seemed sensible. What I mean is, we couldn't figure out how these Antlions were supposed to penetrate the seemingly very strong body armor of the Combine Overwatch. This is just an example of the problems we have been facing.

 

So what we want to know is: What are we doing wrong? Is this whole “trial by fire” technique just a bad technique? Is there a video or series of videos that we could watch that would connect the dots for us? Should we actually just read the books cover to cover before attempting to play? We can’t seem to find many straight answers to the questions we have just by digging through the rulebook, and so we’re kind of stuck.

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Shoug

[Chris Goodwin]

12 hours ago, Shoug said:

So what we want to know is: What are we doing wrong? Is this whole “trial by fire” technique just a bad technique? Is there a video or series of videos that we could watch that would connect the dots for us? Should we actually just read the books cover to cover before attempting to play? We can’t seem to find many straight answers to the questions we have just by digging through the rulebook, and so we’re kind of stuck.

 

To start with, which books are you using?  And what genre are you looking to start playing?

 

I wrote a document called How to Play HERO System which I hope is helpful.  I've tried to write it in a conversational style, and at the end of that document there are links to other helpful info, most of which is here at the Hero Games boards.  

 

"Trial by fire" is not a bad technique, but it's hard to know where to start.  I wouldn't say you need to read the whole book cover to cover; I don't know which books you're looking at, but if I did I could give you a quick rundown on where to really start.  Combat is where I'd have you start; I wouldn't go with the characters from Surbrook's Stuff as much as I would some of the sample characters from the book.  Or some of us could look through Surbrook's and maybe pull out some characters that might be better to start with.  

[massey]

If you are starting with the 6th edition double-rule book set, you'll find it's very slow reading.  It's more of a reference material than an easy to read game book.  On the positive side, virtually everything is in there somewhere.  On the negative side, it's written like the tax code.

 

I think you're doing just fine as far as starting out.  And you can ask your questions here and we are usually pretty helpful.  There's a large community of people with varying levels of experience.

 

Surbrook's Stuff is a great website, but you're correct that many of the character sheets there were made by a guy with 20+ years experience in the game, for arcane reasons known only to him (and his fellow old fogeys).  A lot of very experienced Hero players will get that way, debating over tiny details and engaging in long discussions of theory.  It can be interesting, but it's not really useful when people are trying to learn the system.  I'd suggest finding some more streamlined character sheets that are easier to understand at a glance.

[massey]

As far as reduced by range, it should be in the "Limitations" section of the book.  The attack does full damage within the first 4 hexes (8 meters).  For every extra range increment, it loses 2 damage classes.

 

Autofire is under the "Advantages" section of the book.  You can shoot up to the number of times listed beside the word Autofire (x5, x10).  When you roll to hit, see how much your margin of success was.  For instance, if you needed a 13 or less, and you rolled an 8, then you hit by 5.  With Autofire, you hit the target one extra time for every 2 points of margin of success.  So needing a 13-, if you roll a 12 or 13 you'd hit once.  If you roll a 10 or 11, you hit twice.  If you roll an 8 or a 9, you hit three times, and so on.  You declare how many times you are going to shoot before you roll to hit.  You expend charges or endurance for the full volley, regardless of how many times you hit.

[massey]

In the Hero system, everything is built with Powers.  Even regular equipment is defined by the Powers rules.  So a normal gun is a Ranged Killing Attack.  Then if it has something special, like Autofire or Armor Piercing, those terms are defined by the Advantages and Limitations also in the book.  They modify the Powers to be either better or worse.

 

[Brian Stanfield]

If you're looking for a more condensed version of the rules, you can either read Champions Complete, which gives you all the rules and the Champions genre information.  Or you could get the HERO System Basic Rulebook, which is a 100 page version of the rules and is great for getting a basic grasp of the rules. I'd recommend the Basic Rulebook as an introduction. You don't have to read every Power and things, so it's an even shorter read if you're just looking at the combat rules and stuff. Character creation comes with experience, and familiarity with the Powers comes with practice.

 

So, in order of recommendation:

• Read the HERO System Basic Rulebook, excluding all the Powers/Advantages/Limitations (except only to become familiar with them).
• Use pre-gen characters from the big 6e rulebooks, or some other source other than Satran's characters. There's lots to choose from.
• Jump right in and do some skills challenges first, and then some combat.
• Use the 6e1 and 6e2 books for reference, just as you have been, when you need clarifications.
• Once these things make more sense to you, then create your own characters. Here is when you really need to learn about the Powers and how they are built.
• Ask lots of questions here in the forums section.
• Most importantly, have fun and keep things rolling along. Don't be a slave to the rules yet. Just wing it, keep track of what you need to look up, and do it after the game is over. Keep things moving for now and study later.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[Toxxus]

37 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

Most importantly, have fun and keep things rolling along. Don't be a slave to the rules yet. Just wing it, keep track of what you need to look up, and do it after the game is over. Keep things moving for now and study later.

 

Don't be a slave to the rules ever.

 

This is great advice, given by Brian, and should be something to keep in mind no matter how many years you play any RPG.

[Doc Democracy]

The key point here is that you are right, you are not going to learn the rules by reading the core toolkit cover to cover.  Your approach is also a good one, take some heroes and play out some combats.  You should also have a go at building a character of two.  Do it in stages, here in the boards, you will get all kinds of helpful suggestions.

 

For example.  If you have an idea of a character, just in description, no game mechanics, then begin putting it together, one piece at a time.  When you have done this once or twice you will have a firm grasp of two things.  First, the principles of building powers and using the rules and how simple those principles are. Second, how those simple principles can create huge complexity.  

 

We love new players coming to ask questions, it often makes us reconsider the basic elements of the system with fresh eyes.

 

Doc

[zslane]

There was a time (i.e., 1982) when you could read Champions cover to cover and then start running the sample adventure without constantly having to search the rulebook during play. Those days are long behind us. However, you can get kinda close by using Champions Complete as your main rulebook. The trick then is finding some simple starting adventures to run that don't use any obscure terms, rules, or game mechanics only found in the 6e hardcover reference tomes (luckily there aren't many of those).

 

So I guess if you're not willing or interested in going back to Champions 2nd edition and learning that version of the game first (which is way easier, IMO, and better prepares you for the added complexities of 5e and 6e), then I echo Brian's suggestion to start with Champions Complete.

[Shoug]

6 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Or some of us could look through Surbrook's and maybe pull out some characters that might be better to start with.  

This is an incredibly gracious offer. I would much appreciate it. In terms of what genres we're interested in, we're pretty diverse. Sword and Sorcery is on the menu, sci-fi settings ranging from Barsoom to Black Mesa to Arrakis are on the menu, modern mil-sim or zombies are on the menu.

6 hours ago, massey said:

The attack does full damage within the first 4 hexes (8 meters).  For every extra range increment, it loses 2 damage classes.

This is an example of the sort of problems we're running into. We can find explanations at this level of detail, which isn't quite enough. For example, what's a range increment? Is it a hex? 4 hexes? What is a damage class? So we end up in these massive spirals of madness down into the rulebook that can take hours before we emerge any wiser.

[Hugh Neilson]

Our group has run games with new game systems, or new editions, where we do just that, fully expected.  We run the combat, and look each element up, even when we think we know what it is, so ensure we get the new edition changes, or the rules of this game.  But we go in expecting a page-turning session more than a dice-rolling session.

 

I suggest that playing D&D would be no different if no one was already familiar with the game system.

 

Do you have hardcopy or .pdf?  Word search could help, if .pdf, and there is an index in the hardcopies.

 

Rather than read the books cover to cover, I would consider a pass through Vol 2, as Vol 1 is more about character creation and Vol 2 about gameplay. 

 

To the antlion, it cannot do BOD damage past the armor - it may get some stun damage through, but would have to be lucky.  Surbrook notes that the body armor makes them much tougher than in-game, so you could try removing that.  I am not familiar with the source material, so cannot say if it is a reasonably accurate simulation.

 

I like a lot of Surbrook's stuff, but I think he is focused on simulating the characters over balancing them against each other in his sources writeups.  Maybe try http://surbrook.devermore.com/index/worldbooks.html.  It looks like these are for games, so the characters within one world may balance better against each other. 

[Chris Goodwin]

20 minutes ago, Shoug said:

This is an incredibly gracious offer. I would much appreciate it. In terms of what genres we're interested in, we're pretty diverse. Sword and Sorcery is on the menu, sci-fi settings ranging from Barsoom to Black Mesa to Arrakis are on the menu, modern mil-sim or zombies are on the menu.

This is an example of the sort of problems we're running into. We can find explanations at this level of detail, which isn't quite enough. For example, what's a range increment? Is it a hex? 4 hexes? What is a damage class? So we end up in these massive spirals of madness down into the rulebook that can take hours before we emerge any wiser.

 

It would help us to know which edition(s) and book(s) you're using, because we can give you page references much easier. 

 

Range increment:  For Reduced By Range it's the same as for the standard Range Modifier.  That is:  the first range increment is 0-4 hexes (0-8 meters); the second is 5-8 hexes (9-16 meters).  After that it's double the distance for each range increment: 9-16 hexes (17-32 meters); 17-32 hexes (33-64 meters); etc.  Therefore: the attack with Reduced By Range is at full damage from 0-4 hexes (0-8 meters), -2 DC (Damage Classes) at 5-8 hexes (9-16 meters), -4 DC at 9-16 hexes (17-32 meters), etc.  

 

One Damage Class in general is 1d6 of Normal Damage; for Killing Damage, 1 DC is 1 pip, 2 DC is 1/2d6 or 1d6-1, 3 DC is 1d6, and every additional three Damage Classes of Killing Damage is +1d6.  This can be modified by Advantages that affect damage, but that's generally how it works.  

[Duke Bushido]

Your half right:

 

The characters you're studying were written by a very clever guy.  Not a grognard, though.  He's one of us who grew up with several versions of the rules over the years, which makes picking up the newer versions much easier: not only do you understand what the terms are, you _intuitively_ understand it from years of having done it yourself; all you really need to look for is what's changed.

 

What you're asking about in regard to those sheets: the various ways that advantages and limitations  interact-- a lot of that has to be intuited from what the individual elements do.  There's less and less intuition with each edition, as the rules become more and more expansive, telling you what x does when conjoined to y, etc.  The short version, though, is this:  you will learn it.  Like most anything else, it takes time and practice.

 

As others have mentioned, knowing the edition you're trying to use would really make it easier to give suggestions.  If you're using either version of 5e, then pick up a copy of HERO System Sidekick: it's essentially it's an abridged version of the rules without too terribly much stuff to add to confusion: it's almost nothing but the absolute basics of the rules.

 

"Sidekick" for 6e was called "HERO System Basic Rulebook."  Essentially, it's Sidekick. Champions Complete is pretty much this book and some flavor.  Either one of these books would serve as excellent primers for 6e.  I like Basic myself, as it weighs in at only a hundred pages.

 

 

 

Either way, good luck!

 

 

 

[Shoug]

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

It would help us to know which edition(s) and book(s) you're using, because we can give you page references much easier. 

Sorry, I didn't realize there were so many books. I decided to go with 6e first because, despite it being criticized for being a slog, I wanted the ground zero of my experience to be the most comprehensive version with the least ambiguity (I play a lot of MTG where the rules are basically computer code).

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Do you have hardcopy or .pdf?  Word search could help, if .pdf, and there is an index in the hardcopies.

I've got the PDFs for the two core 6e books (vol1/2). Searching the terms I find in the game rarely makes it much easier to find what I'm looking for. Usually what I find are the keywords being used within examples of other concepts or I find situations where an exception to the keyword had to be explained (like in the case of Autofire, which has a few special meanings in the cases of Powers like Environment Control and the like). 

I'm considering picking up the hardcopies because I figure it would help me by 1) Providing yet another page that can be open simultaneously with other pages, 2) Making it possible for me to memorize the physical locations of specific sections and chapters. The price tag is just a little out there for me, considering that I've already bounced off of the system a few times.

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

like Basic myself, as it weighs in at only a hundred pages.

Thanks for the suggestion, 100 pages is 100% accessible. I'll check it out.

[massey]

5th edition has a black cover with a green guy in the jumping jack pose.  6th edition is a two book set with a blue cover with a yellow guy doing the jumping jack pose.  Most of the rules are the same, but some of the costs are different.

[Tjack]

    I once described in a complimentary manner the Surbrook Stuff site to a sports car dealership.  Beautiful and complex pieces of machinery for me to drool over.  (BWT are we ever going to see some new models on the showroom floor?)   But a Ferrari Testarosa Turbo is not the car to take out for your first driving lesson.

   Elsewhere on this site experienced GM’s  have put together a large number of starting out 250 point versions of both familiar name characters and basic archetypes.  You may want to try looking at some of them.

[Doc Democracy]

6 hours ago, Shoug said:

Sorry, I didn't realize there were so many books. I decided to go with 6e first because, despite it being criticized for being a slog, I wanted the ground zero of my experience to be the most comprehensive version with the least ambiguity (I play a lot of MTG where the rules are basically computer code).

 

 

There are a LOT of books and when you know the system none of them beyond the core are NECESSARY but lots of them are useful.

 

Given your preferences, you might want to dip all the way back to 3rd edition and pick up a hard copy of Danger International or Justice Inc. These are essentially cut down versions of the core rules to apply them to a particular genre (action adventure or pulp, respectively). They have one big relic of pre-6th edition but it would give you a HERO-style game to familiarise yourself with the system.

 

If you want to stick with 6th then I would pick up Fantasy Hero Complete as it seems to constrain the current system into a specific genre.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

On 3/15/2019 at 5:01 AM, Shoug said:

We acknowledge the possibility that these character sheets are the overwrought brainchildren of a theory-wanking grognard, and might feature extravagantly avant garde applications of the rules that are satisfying only to the “clever” guy who thought of them.

If there is any issues, it is with the setting and the general Powerlevel.

 

Stuff like Videogames or Action movies is something I tend to simulate closer to the Superheroic end of the spectrum.

100-200 Points is about Agent Level for those games (175 is common in 6E).

This looks like it was more designed for a exact Imitation, with a unclear Powerlevel. Armor with a Activation Roll/limited coverage is a Heroic thing for me.

It also does not help that Surbook almost exclusively works in 5E as you can see on the Complication Amounts. So he is not the best place to learn with 6E.

 

The HERO/Champions game Systems was originally designed for the superheroic team game. If you want to learn it, that is the level you should aim at starting at.

Lower powerlevels are something you can thing about after you are more familiar with the rules and how each thing plays out.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Shoug said:

I've got the PDFs for the two core 6e books (vol1/2). Searching the terms I find in the game rarely makes it much easier to find what I'm looking for. Usually what I find are the keywords being used within examples of other concepts or I find situations where an exception to the keyword had to be explained (like in the case of Autofire, which has a few special meanings in the cases of Powers like Environment Control and the like).

 

I find I use "next" a lot to fire through.  When looking for a specific power, limitation, etc., try "HHAutofire".  The system picks up the icon in front of the heading at each title in the skills, powers, advantages, etc. sections as HH.

[Brian Stanfield]

16 hours ago, Shoug said:

Sorry, I didn't realize there were so many books. I decided to go with 6e first because, despite it being criticized for being a slog, I wanted the ground zero of my experience to be the most comprehensive version with the least ambiguity (I play a lot of MTG where the rules are basically computer code).

I've got the PDFs for the two core 6e books (vol1/2). Searching the terms I find in the game rarely makes it much easier to find what I'm looking for. Usually what I find are the keywords being used within examples of other concepts or I find situations where an exception to the keyword had to be explained (like in the case of Autofire, which has a few special meanings in the cases of Powers like Environment Control and the like). 

I'm considering picking up the hardcopies because I figure it would help me by 1) Providing yet another page that can be open simultaneously with other pages, 2) Making it possible for me to memorize the physical locations of specific sections and chapters. The price tag is just a little out there for me, considering that I've already bounced off of the system a few times. . .

 

Thanks for the suggestion, 100 pages is 100% accessible. I'll check it out.

 

As someone who only recently got into 6th edition rules (after a 30 year break!), let me offer some advice on the books:

• Don't bother with the hardcover copies of 6th edition. 6e1 is almost impossible to find at a reasonable price, and if you do find one under $100 the binding is so dang fragile that it will break after you open it several times. You definitely don't want to use it as your physical reference. 6e2 is still available at the store here at HERO, at the original price, so is probably worth the price, but the binding is also going to be ridiculously fragile.
• If you don't mind not having the full-color books, you can get them in paperback, reasonably priced and printed on demand, at DriveThruRPG with a full color (well, blue and yellow) cover and black-and-white interior. They are well done, and are more durable than the hardcover books with the fragile spines.
• I'd definitely have a copy (or several) of the Basic Rulebook, as I mentioned above. It's a good introduction, and it is easy to flip through to find the rule you're looking for. It won't have some of the more complex rules, but you aren't worried about them right now anyway, right?
• Just focus on getting the basics under your belt. I can't emphasize this enough! I've read through the two big volumes cover to cover, and it's a slog! I've read the Basic Rulebook several times, and it's much quicker and more concise, and makes for an easier overview of the rules (stuff like understanding normal and killing damage, damage classes, hexes=2 meters, range modifiers, all the things you are asking about).
• If you're into fantasy, then get Fantasy HERO Complete. It's essentially the Basic Rulebook with genre information added to it. It will show you how to apply HERO System to a genre you are interested in, so may be very useful for you. If you're genre-neutral or undecided, Champions Complete is going to cover a little bit more of the modern rules situations you may need.  Neither of these books is necessary, if you have the other rulebooks, but they can help you figure out how to apply the Powers rules to different genres (magic, special abilities, building weapons or firearms, etc.).
• Once you have these core rulebooks, there are so many others to start looking at. They are all available at DriveThruRPG. The Grimoire is an entire book of magic; the Martial Arts book may actually be more up your alley with lots of ways to build fighting systems, including contemporary military campaigns; likewise, the Equipment Guide will be incredibly useful for your non-supers campaigns (you won't have to figure out how to build all your firearms, for example); the Skills book is useful for heroic-level campaigns where players will not be using Powers as much as they will have lots of varied Skills; the Advanced Players Guide 1 & 2 are not immediately needed for you, but are full of interesting applications of the rules in non-standard ways. Anyway, all these books are available when you're ready for them. You can also get the PDFs here at the HERO store if that's all you need, plus you'd be supporting HERO directly.
• If you're looking for more direction in the modern settings other than super heroes, get old used copies of Danger International and Justice, Inc. They are from 3rd edition, but they have such great material for the genres that they may come in handy. They are by no means necessary, and while they can be converted to 6th edition, that whole process will only confuse you. But as genre books they work great.
• Once you get this stuff under your belt, you'll find that a lot of the 5e books will be very useful as well, and by then you'll be ready to start converting older editions to 6e. But for now don't worry about any of this. I'm just pointing to all the tantalizing possibilities in the future . . . .

 

Also, keep this in mind: there is rarely only one way to build something. You'll find that there are many, many ways to create what you want, so don't worry about "the right way to do things." HERO System is really just a toolbox to help you build things the way you want. Keep asking questions in the forums so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. And don't be surprised when a single question yields a dozen contradictory solutions!  Pick the one you like best and run with it. 

 

I hope this helps somewhat. I had to go through what you are right now, and had to figure all this stuff out on my own.

[Lucius]

On 3/15/2019 at 12:01 AM, Shoug said:

I’ve been admiring Hero System from a distance for some time now. Over the course of a few years, I’ve started and stopped reading the rulebooks, occasionally intending on “Buckling down to RTFM cover-to-cover this time, then I’ll know it!.” Each time I stopped because I couldn’t maintain interest, gleaning only the most elementary understanding of the rules of the game.

I recently tried kickstarting a game with my friends by reading both a 2 and 3 page version of the rules and then just finding premade characters on the internet to do a mock-combat with. The idea was this: after being forced to look up things we were seeing on the character sheets enough times, we’d have a high enough resolution gestalt of the game to start digging around and making our own characters (and playing quickly and smoothly). We were using these premade character sheets:

• • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/combine_overwatch.html

  • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/antlion_soldier.html

  • http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvideogame/hl2/weapons.html

We acknowledge the possibility that these character sheets are the overwrought brainchildren of a theory-wanking grognard, and might feature extravagantly avant garde applications of the rules that are satisfying only to the “clever” guy who thought of them. It’s a scenario we hadn’t much opportunity to avoid, so we opted to treat them as fine examples of character sheets. Nonetheless, there are certain concepts that are used on these character sheets that we can’t find anything about by CTRL-Fing through each of the core rulebooks. The shotgun’s damage is “reduced by range”, which is a string that we just literally couldn’t find in the rulebooks, and the pulse rifle utilizes “autofire” which we couldn’t find a core definition for (everything we found was an explanation of how “autofire” works for specific Powers and how it affects the strength requirements of melee weapons, it wasn’t listed at all underneath “Firearms”). Most of the terms we searched could be found in either books' glossary, but those definitions were often too abbreviated and none of them directed us to a page that would give us the full scoop. In addition to this, when we tried to use our best judgement about how these rules should be applied, we couldn't find a way to produce a result that seemed sensible. What I mean is, we couldn't figure out how these Antlions were supposed to penetrate the seemingly very strong body armor of the Combine Overwatch. This is just an example of the problems we have been facing.

 

So what we want to know is: What are we doing wrong? Is this whole “trial by fire” technique just a bad technique? Is there a video or series of videos that we could watch that would connect the dots for us? Should we actually just read the books cover to cover before attempting to play? We can’t seem to find many straight answers to the questions we have just by digging through the rulebook, and so we’re kind of stuck.

 

 

 

 

 The shotgun’s damage is “reduced by range”, which is a string that we just literally couldn’t find in the rulebooks,

 

You'll find it under "Limitations." Which rulebook are you consulting?

 

and the pulse rifle utilizes “autofire” which we couldn’t find a core definition for

 

You'll find that under "Advantages"

 

(everything we found was an explanation of how “autofire” works for specific Powers and how it affects the strength requirements of melee weapons, it wasn’t listed at all underneath “Firearms”).

 

And in this case the specific Power in question is Ranged Killing Attack. If Autofire is in play, it is always as an Advantage on a specific Power.  In Hero, "Fire arms" are the Power Ranged Killing Attack, with Limitations like Focus (power is in an object that can be taken away) and Charges (the ammunition.)

 

 

Most of the terms we searched could be found in either books' glossary, but those definitions were often too abbreviated and none of them directed us to a page that would give us the full scoop. In addition to this, when we tried to use our best judgement about how these rules should be applied, we couldn't find a way to produce a result that seemed sensible. What I mean is, we couldn't figure out how these Antlions were supposed to penetrate the seemingly very strong body armor of the Combine Overwatch.

 

Assault has one possible answer:

 

"The armour write-up includes this:

Requires A Roll (12- roll; covers Hit Locations 9-14; -1/4)

 

The armour isn't full coverage. The antlion does Body to the Overwatch soldier by attacking the parts of the body that aren't covered."

 

There are a few ways to implement that. You can just randomly roll 3d6 for every bite and if it's 12 or less, the armor applies. Or you can roll for Hit Location every time. Or you can allow the Ant Lions to make called shots, taking a penalty to target specific body parts (I suggest the head) that aren't armored.

 

Another option is for the Ant Lions (who are swarm creatures apparently and apt to outnumber their opponents) to use Tactics and Teamwork. For example, several try to Grab (look up under Combat Maneuvers) a soldier (preferably from behind) and when they have him Grabbed, 1 or 2 who were holdng phases waiting for the opportunity attempt a Haymaker (look up under Combat Maneuvers) with their bite attack.

 

This is just an example of the problems we have been facing.

 

So what we want to know is: What are we doing wrong?

 

I think you had a good idea, you just may have picked the wrong two characters to try with. But let us consider what you can learn from this.

 

You know to check the write up of a Power, like the armor in this case, and notice things like the Activation Roll Limitation.

 

You know that if you want to have a feel for what will happen when two characters or creatures clash, comparing how the biggest or main attack's damage on each side stacks up to the other sides defenses is important. If the armor hadn't been partial coverage, the ant lions could still hurt the soldiers but it would be a lot harder.  Conversely if you take these soldiers up against something with a 3d6 Killing Attack, they are much more likely to get hurt.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This message reviewed and edited by a palindromedary

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Lucius
might as well say something

[assault]

23 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To the antlion, it cannot do BOD damage past the armor - it may get some stun damage through, but would have to be lucky. 

 

The armour write-up includes this:

Requires A Roll (12- roll; covers Hit Locations 9-14; -1/4)

 

The armour isn't full coverage. The antlion does Body to the Overwatch soldier by attacking the parts of the body that aren't covered.

[Manic Typist]

Also.... check the Index in the back of the book. That lists the page numbers a subject shows up on, so you can quickly go and look to see if it's just a quick reference (move on) or the actual bolded entry that discusses it (start reading there).

[himala]

Wow, thank you so much, guys. As a newbie, I also face a similar problems. Not many people around me know about DnD-styled games, moreover HERO System. So my choice is using "trial by fire" method like Shoug did.

[Doc Democracy]

It can also be useful simply having the lists of powers, advantages and limitations from the books for quick reference.