VPP questions

[specks]

What is your experience been with Variable Power Pools

Do you have any house rules concerning VPPs? Do you allow them at all and if so what limits do you place on them?

Have you or anyone else in your game used a Cosmic Power Pool? What was the outcome?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

VPPs must have a tightly defined SFX.  No vaguely defined "cosmic power VPP (does anything)" or "magic VPP (does anything)". 

You, the player, cannot have the Extra Time Limitation.  When your Phase comes up, you either have the thing you want to VPP fully built or you're not VPPing that thing right now. 

 

These were in response to the guy who took a Cosmic  "magic" VPP as his character's only mode of combat and would take three minutes just to figure out that Fireball is RKA 2d6 AoE.  It was horrible. 

[Barton]

Players must PRE-define the powers and have them approved BEFORE play starts. No creation when your phase is up.

[Doc Democracy]

You have a catch 22 situation.  Only experienced players should be allowed to play a Cosmic power pool.  A cosmic power pool in the hands of an experienced player is a terrible thing! 🙂

 

I often have multiple players with small (20 point) power pools.  Some are tightly defined others are not.

 

The rule of taking time at the table is a good one though, if the vpp player is not ready, they use a different power.  No getting time to think it through in detail.

 

You find those players will develop a list of powers they use all the time and use the flexibility mostly out of combat.

 

Doc

[JmOz]

I give a couple limitations to save points on them for things to reduce my headache.  Like a list of predetermined powers is worth a -1/4...

[massey]

Highly skilled players are murder machines with cosmic VPPs.  Yes, I've used one.  Yes, I could basically do anything I wanted with it. 

 

One of the nastiest parts is slapping limitations on the powers to bring the real cost down.  Suppose you had a 60 point Cosmic VPP.  You can have a 12D6 Energy Blast, or +30" of Flight, or a 30/30 Force Field.  Or why not all three at once?  Slap x5 Endurance (-2 limitation) on them and for a few phases, you can have all 3 powers going at the same time.  Yeah, you'll run out of End fast.  That's why you thought of that before the fight and Aided your Endurance, right?

 

On the other hand, inexperienced players get totally shut down when you hand them a VPP.  They can't wrap their head around it and they just freeze up.

[pbemguy]

I've run a few recently.

 

Definitely don't give one to a newbie. What happens is the GM ends up figuring everything, at least in my most recent experience.

 

I really like the idea of a time limit at the table: set a stopwatch for one minute, and if nothing is said in that minute then nothing comes out of the VPP!

 

I think it's best for experienced players, and with a tight SFX restriction, as has already been mentioned. (e.g. "fire powers")

[Matt the Bruins]

On 6/18/2020 at 5:33 PM, Doc Democracy said:

I often have multiple players with small (20 point) power pools.  Some are tightly defined others are not.

 

The rule of taking time at the table is a good one though, if the vpp player is not ready, they use a different power.  No getting time to think it through in detail.

 

You find those players will develop a list of powers they use all the time and use the flexibility mostly out of combat.

 

Doc

I don't understand why people wouldn't do this prior to debuting a character with a VPP in the first place. Two of my characters have VPPs and I regard the list of pre-designed slots they favor to be as essential parts of their character sheets as the stat blocks.

 

On 6/29/2020 at 5:25 PM, pbemguy said:

I really like the idea of a time limit at the table: set a stopwatch for one minute, and if nothing is said in that minute then nothing comes out of the VPP!

I think this would work well with "whatever power you pick for your next phase can benefit from cost savings of the Extra Time Limitation, and must have it at at least the -3/4 level since it's going to take at least that long in game time to activate."

[Zephrosyne]

I have found Variable Power Pools to be a bit too cheap.  In my campaigns, the default cost assumes (and enforces) a relatively tight special effect (e.g. Fire Powers, Gravity Powers, etc.); if the player (or NPC) has a broader category special effect there is a surcharge applied to the Control Cost.  The surcharge can be as little as +1/4 to as much as +1 in the case of extremely broad special effects such as Cosmic, Magic, Psionics etc.  However, if the special effect is rather narrow, a Limitation may be called for.  I am also very, very watchful of slots with Limitations.  Some Limitations aren't all that limiting when you have a Variable Pool that you change slots every Phase such as Blast (Only Versus Orcs) which can be Blast (Only Versus Dragons) as a Zero Phase Action.  Also, like other gms I only allow them in the hands of experienced players.  Lastly, I don't allow the game to be slowed by someone with a Variable Power Pool.  The player is required to make a nice list of prepared configurations to have on hand.

[Strand]

I know this is late, but I come from a group of power games. (don't we all?) If our GM said we were having a Champions game, one would create an insane gadget pool. The rest would create their VPPs.  I don't think it's only up to the Player to be responsible to the player. You can have a player that can make the perfect VPP.  (I had friends make a character for me that had a Weather VPP and I had sticky notes for all the powers she could create)

Where the REAL responsibility lies is the GM. If that person doesn't know the rules backwards and forwards, they might as well ban the Variable Power Pool. Otherwise Chaos will reign.

[Zephrosyne]

23 hours ago, Strand said:

I know this is late, but I come from a group of power games. (don't we all?) If our GM said we were having a Champions game, one would create an insane gadget pool. The rest would create their VPPs.  I don't think it's only up to the Player to be responsible to the player. You can have a player that can make the perfect VPP.  (I had friends make a character for me that had a Weather VPP and I had sticky notes for all the powers she could create)

Where the REAL responsibility lies is the GM. If that person doesn't know the rules backwards and forwards, they might as well ban the Variable Power Pool. Otherwise Chaos will reign.

While I agree that it isn't "only" up to the "Player" to be a responsible player, I think far too many players are far too willing to abdicate their part of the responsibility, which in all honesty should be mostly on them not them gm.  There is nothing remotely hard about behaving like a reasonable and mature adult (or teenager) when creating and playing a character.  An even modestly experienced player should not need the gm to hold his damn hand.  You only have the one job for godsakes.  

 

I have always been fairly lenient with people who are new to roleplaying games; they usually don't know better.  Hell, I think to a degree, the power geekery/munchkin phase is one of the growing pains of roleplaying.  God knows, me and the group I started out with had our moments.  They were positively cringe-worthy.  However, when I know you know better, at best I will give you the business because of your bs and tell you to get your act together.   At worst, I'll let you play the abusive character and then show you (in game on full display for everyone playing to watch) that no matter what you think you have and no matter what you think you can create or come up with, my point budget is unlimited so you need to act like you have some damn sense or get the hell away from our gaming table.  Your behavior is not welcome.  Your choice!    

[Thia Halmades]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:27 PM, specks said:

What is your experience been with Variable Power Pools

Do you have any house rules concerning VPPs? Do you allow them at all and if so what limits do you place on them?

Have you or anyone else in your game used a Cosmic Power Pool? What was the outcome?

 

They are vile, evil things and I don’t allow them. They’re nigh impossible to balance and require a massive amount of buy in and trust.

If there’s a VPP, then I’ve defined it, soup to nuts, to do something very specific.

I have not, and would not. Just way, way too easy to break the game.

[dmjalund]

I would have the player to make builds for his VPP before the game and appraise them.

[unclevlad]

I'm extremely leery about cosmic VPPs, from both sides.

As a GM, it's opening the door to abuse, and for bogging the game down.  Paralysis by analysis...what *exactly* do I want to do?  

 

As a player, it's expensive, when it's on a fairly sizable pool.  Particularly a true, do-anything cosmic pool.  If nothing else, the Power skill for manipulating the pool, can be used with Requires A Roll...so add the common modifier Requires a Skill Roll.  This becomes big when the VPP's designed to cover more than 1 power at a time.  Some VPPs make this a dream.  Blaster gives a good example:

 

40 base + 70 control cost;  half phase to change.  92 active.  Blasts, RKAs, and Flashes (-1/2);  all slots Requires a Skill Roll at -1 per 20 points.  70 points total.

Then you have an 11d6 Blast (or Flash) with 1/2 END for 69 points.  With a -1/2 limit...take 2 of Beam, Red Pen, and Limited Range.  You also have an 8d6 Blast with 1/2 END, where you can add another +1/2 advantage like, say, Double KB.  "GET AWAY FROM MY FRIENDS!!!"  Or against the DEX demon AoE 1 hex, Accurate.  Beam's off the table, but not Limited Range and Red Pen.  Yes, you still have to pay for the skill roll, but figure a 70 point multi, you'd have to cover the slot costs, and it wouldn't be anything NEAR as versatile.

 

Thngs get particularly nasty the more open it's allowed to be, as has been noted.  8d6 NND vs. Power Def is within the scope of that VPP.  As was pointed out, this probably shouldn't get the NND price break if it can be versus PowD or Flash Def or Mental.  That's like the "only versus orcs"...it's not limiting much in a VPP.

 

So...they're nice but as has been said, they need significant discussion and trust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Panpiper]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:12 PM, dmjalund said:

I would have the player to make builds for his VPP before the game and appraise them.

 

Yep, all slots designed and pre-approved by the GM 'before' the game, should be absolutely mandatory. That is certainly a rule I impose on myself if a player.

[Greywind]

Depends on the player and the level of trust between him and the GM.

[Barton]

Another way I like VPP is for a 10 or 15 active point pool for non-combat powers; a great way to add powers to a character that make the character more well rounded.

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Panpiper said:

 

Yep, all slots designed and pre-approved by the GM 'before' the game, should be absolutely mandatory. That is certainly a rule I impose on myself if a player.

 

With a qualifier for me:  that it's a structural template.  Blast?  PD or ED, SFX...subject to change.  Limitations *may* be subject to change...beam, limited range, and red pen, pick 2.  AVAD or NND, I might just note what the advantage level is...+1/2, +1 or +1 1/2...but not necessarily the defense.  Most advantages, tho, need to be fully spec'd.

7 hours ago, Barton said:

Another way I like VPP is for a 10 or 15 active point pool for non-combat powers; a great way to add powers to a character that make the character more well rounded.

 

Which ones are you considering?  Most of these are special powers, and require GM permission.

[Barton]

5 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

With a qualifier for me:  that it's a structural template.  Blast?  PD or ED, SFX...subject to change.  Limitations *may* be subject to change...beam, limited range, and red pen, pick 2.  AVAD or NND, I might just note what the advantage level is...+1/2, +1 or +1 1/2...but not necessarily the defense.  Most advantages, tho, need to be fully spec'd.

 

Which ones are you considering?  Most of these are special powers, and require GM permission.

An example is a metamorph; in the 10pt VPP is additional running, additional swinging, non-combat use stretching, and instant change for clothes.

[unclevlad]

16 minutes ago, Barton said:

An example is a metamorph; in the 10pt VPP is additional running, additional swinging, non-combat use stretching, and instant change for clothes.

 

Ahh.  Yeah, other than maybe the instant change...but I wouldn't call those non-combat powers per se.