Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[zslane]

Bazza makes a lot of sense, except that Ant-Man defies the Phase Three Directive Theory, IMO. I see nothing about that character that is important to the Thanos/Infinity Guantlet storyline, and yet Marvel saw fit to squeeze that film in and squeeze him into the Avengers team. Black Widow already inhabits the world and the Avengers/Thanos storyline, and I am confident that the creative team at Marvel could find a way to make a BW film not only good, but also tightly connected with the larger Avengers plotline.

 

I mean, look at what they're doing with Rogue One. It has nothing whatever to do with the storline of the new films, but Disney is giving us this "filler" film anyway. It is basically a flashback movie, giving us a kind of behind-the-scenes look at events we didn't even know we cared about. And while some folks here may say, "You're right I don't care about any of that and don't plan to see it," Disney is banking on the fact that lots of other fans will go see it. They could easily do the same thing with Black Widow, regardless of the specific issue of how it "fits" into the rest of Phase Three, banking on the apparent demand for such a film within fandom.

[bigdamnhero]

Fair points zslane. Tho the Star Wars comparison doesn't fit 100% because Disney isn't already producing two "main storyline" movies per year. If they were I imagine it'd be harder to squeeze in a 3rd "filler" film.

[zslane]

Sure, but that's back to being a logistical issue, not a "doesn't fit our plans for the larger narrative" issue.

[Lord Liaden]

I was thinking of the example of Ant-Man as well, but I've come to the conclusion his movie actually does add substantially to the MCU. It introduces several characters who are core elements of Marvel Comics history, as well as one of that universe's key scientific discoveries. It shows the evolution of Howard Stark, Peggy Carter, and SHIELD, and that superheroes didn't simply cease to exist between Captain America's disappearance and Iron Man's debut. It introduces the Quantum Realm, possibly paving the way for the reality-warping of Dr. Strange. And it was a chance for Marvel to make a heist movie, a genre they hadn't explored yet.

 

Much as I like the idea of a Black Widow movie, I have to admit it would be unlikely to pave anywhere near that much new ground.

[massey]

Bazza makes a lot of sense, except that Ant-Man defies the Phase Three Directive Theory, IMO. I see nothing about that character that is important to the Thanos/Infinity Guantlet storyline, and yet Marvel saw fit to squeeze that film in and squeeze him into the Avengers team. Black Widow already inhabits the world and the Avengers/Thanos storyline, and I am confident that the creative team at Marvel could find a way to make a BW film not only good, but also tightly connected with the larger Avengers plotline.

 

I mean, look at what they're doing with Rogue One. It has nothing whatever to do with the storline of the new films, but Disney is giving us this "filler" film anyway. It is basically a flashback movie, giving us a kind of behind-the-scenes look at events we didn't even know we cared about. And while some folks here may say, "You're right I don't care about any of that and don't plan to see it," Disney is banking on the fact that lots of other fans will go see it. They could easily do the same thing with Black Widow, regardless of the specific issue of how it "fits" into the rest of Phase Three, banking on the apparent demand for such a film within fandom.

 

 

They just don't really want to make a Black Widow movie.  That's all there is to it.

 

Ant Man was a big risk, and it paid off for them.  But somebody at Marvel wanted to do it.  Black Widow doesn't seem to have anybody at Marvel Studios really pushing for it. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Much as I like the idea of a Black Widow movie, I have to admit it would be unlikely to pave anywhere near that much new ground.

 

Neither did Ant-Man as a bare concept or character.  It was how the story was told and written that made all that you mentioned a part of the storyline.  As a spy, working in the background, a Black Widow movie could have easily been the one that unveiled HYDRA in the midst of SHIELD.  Its just a question of what you make it about and why.

 

The truth is, Ant-Man was a founding Avenger, and Black Widow is just a side character thrown in so there's a girl in the movies.  She is basically without fan base and is a very minor character like Ant-Man, without the history or technology.  Plus, she doesn't shrink so there's no nifty graphical effects.  I'm not arguing that's why a movie shouldn't be made, just how I suspect execs are thinking.

[zslane]

Ant-Man was a project that went through director crises, production delays, and countless scheduling problems. It's original "place" within the MCU's larger narrative was lost long ago. It had to be shoe-horned into what little space was left by the time it screened. It was not a smooth integration, IMO. Yet it worked, despite Marvel's best efforts to kill it by death of a thousand cuts.

 

I tend to agree with massey that it just comes down to Marvel not wanting to make a Black Widow movie badly enough to go through all the effort it would take to develop it and cram it into the current slate. It could be done, they just don't wanna, despite all the lip service Feige pays it in interviews and at conventions.

[Lord Liaden]

 

The truth is, Ant-Man was a founding Avenger, and Black Widow is just a side character thrown in so there's a girl in the movies.  She is basically without fan base and is a very minor character like Ant-Man, without the history or technology.  Plus, she doesn't shrink so there's no nifty graphical effects.  I'm not arguing that's why a movie shouldn't be made, just how I suspect execs are thinking.

 

Movie-wise, your statement about Black Widow being "thrown in so there's a girl in the movies" may be valid. (Although Joss Whedon has revealed his original Avengers script included Wasp, but the studio asked him to change it to Widow.) But as a comic-book character BW is a long way from lacking history or a fan-base. She debuted in the mid-1960s as a Soviet spy and Iron Man villain, and wrangled Hawkeye during his early criminal phase. Over the years she's served several tours as an Avenger; was the partner and lover of Daredevil for a stretch (and shared her name with his in the comic banner); led the Champions hero team during their short-lived comic run; had her own mini-series. She's not an A-list Marvel hero, but she's well established and recognized among comic fans. People outside comics would not have known her before the movies, but that's true of much of the MCU's stable.

[Old Man]

BW has a fan base to the extent that lots of girls went to toy stores after the movie looking for BW merch...that didn't exist.

[Shadow Hawk]

BW has a fan base to the extent that lots of girls went to toy stores after the movie looking for BW merch...that didn't exist.

Good news, you can now find BW action figures and costumes at the Disney Store.

[Old Man]

Awesome, I can't wait to show you guys how I look in skintight leather.

 

Which reminds me, I saw Avengers Halloween costumes at target today. It begins.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Wasp would have been cooler, I think, but Black Widow has a useful spy niche in the Avengers.  Watching her stand around looking worried with a pistol while aliens destroyed NYC was really bad though.  She was way out of her depth and Wasp at least would have been more mobile and aerial.  The Avengers had one flier really (Iron Man).  Thor could fly, but only non combat.

[slikmar]

I would point out one other thing. To my knowledge, BW also doesn't have her own comic, something every other character that has a movie being done does. I think this also could be part of it.

[zslane]

It is my belief that Hawkeye and Black Widow, as portrayed in the MCU, owe more to their Ultimates incarnations than their traditional 616 incarnations. Unfortunately, Whedon either didn't understand how, or wasn't permitted, to give those two characters the same roles (within the team) and the same degree of badassery as in the Ultimates comic. The result is two characters that, by and large, don't really fit with the scope of power of the other Avengers.

 

And as the Avengers storyline continues to climb the power ladder, becoming more cosmic and universe-threatening, the degree to which these two characters are out of place (and indadequate) only grows. It isn't hard to see that stepping back from the trajectory of the Infinity Gauntlet story to tell a gritty, more gounded, dare I say small story like a BW film would, just isn't on anyone's priority list over at Marvel.

 

Maybe Black Widow needs to be a Netflix series, rather than a summer blockbuster.

[Christopher R Taylor]

There's really no possible way to make Black Widow as badass as Thor, Iron Man, and Hulk.  But you can make her as useful and interesting as Captain America.  The Avengers have always had a pretty wide range of power levels and that's fine under a skilled writer, but its pretty obvious that Whedon wasn't exactly sure what to do with Black Widow in the big combat scenes. She was great in her intro and interrogating Loki, but then sort of lost.

 

In a game this really sucks.  Basically the 250 point character is running around talking to cops and helping civilians get to safety while the 400 point characters are saving the world.

[bigdamnhero]

I got the sense part of the reason Marvel wanted to make Ant-Man was specifically to do something a little more light-hearted and silly.

 

It is my belief that Hawkeye and Black Widow, as portrayed in the MCU, owe more to their Ultimates incarnations than their traditional 616 incarnations.

That's true to a greater or lesser degree of most of the MCU. I'm just glad they didn't go the Ultimates route with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver...

[zslane]

...but its pretty obvious that Whedon wasn't exactly sure what to do with Black Widow in the big combat scenes.

Yes, and that's where I feel the Ultimates got it right. By relegating Widow and Hawkeye to covert, black-ops missions that were in support of, and in the margins of the big battle scenes. Whedon's (or whoever's) first mistake was in thinking he should put Black Widow into the big combat scenes.

[Hugh Neilson]

My understanding is that Ant-Man was planned early, but pushed back several times.  It contained a lot of MCI history, likely a key reason Whedon could not use the Wasp was that the Ant-Man backstory was set, despite the movie not being shot.

 

Black Widow has had a few series over the years, including a current book.  She's never been an A-Lister, though.

 

Practically, Hawkeye got the Ultimates version because "wisecracking Super" had been co-opted by RDJ's Iron Man.  Black Widow seems way more 616 than Ultimates to me.  The Ultimate Widow was a traitor to the team, and that role has been co-opted by Monica Chang, who probably isn't the best role for ScarJo.

[Lord Liaden]

Most of the time MCU Hawkeye does exactly what someone like him should to be most useful: find a covered location and start sniping. Which with his array of arrows, he's very effective at.

 

Black Widow gets in the big combat scenes all the time in the comics, although most often delaying and distracting the villain to set him up for the powerhouses. But MCU Widow's real usefulness to the team comes from her skill and smarts, like being at the right place at the right time. In Civil War she was the first one to guess Team Cap would use a diversion to allow some of them to try for the Quinjet; so she was already there ahead of them, in a position to turn the course of the battle (in Cap's favor, as it turned out).

[bigdamnhero]

Well put, LL. Black Widow is a classic example of how a character can be useful, even crucial, to a campaign even if they don't have a 15d6 attack.

[Cassandra]

On a side note Ghost Rider will be on Agents of SHIELD.

 

This will be the last season.

[zslane]

Wow. Disney is really just giving up on putting their comics characters on ABC entirely. That's sad.

[Lord Liaden]

Indeed. On the plus side, this might free up some of those TV-exclusive characters to appear in future Marvel movies.

[Doc Shadow]

On a side note Ghost Rider will be on Agents of SHIELD.

 

This will be the last season.

 

What makes you think this will be the last season?

[Pattern Ghost]

It hasn't been announced as the last season. There are articles speculating that it's doomed, because it's being pushed back to the 10 pm time slot, which is one that shows don't usually survive.