DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Bazza]

Nope.  I meant what I said. Yes I understand the actress is over 30, but she isn't Wonder Woman to me but makes a very fine Wonder Girl. I feel the actress has been miscast to play the role. 

 

I also feel the actor was miscast playing Lex in BvS. Also, Ben makes a good Bats/Bruce.

 

I did do acknowledge that. However Gal Gadot in the role of Wonder Woman looks/feels to me more like Wonder Girl. It is simple really.

 

Oh…I thought I originally posted my review on Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice. All I could find was these two previous posts.

 

Here is my extended thoughts after watching the film, spoilered for length.

 

 

Batman v Superman extended thoughts. Written July 18th.

 

The Good

One thing I want is a "Batman noir"--where the Bat-mythos is de-emphasised and the hard-boiled detective noir is front and centre. Imagine Sam Spade as Batman. The first part of BvS is that...mostly.

 

I also liked the realism of it, and felt that both Bruce & Clark as realistic albeit simplistic reasons for going after each other's alter ego.

 

Doomsday is accurate as per the comics, the bony one, although I dislike that he is created as a literal Frankenstein monster (see below under Ugly for additional context)

 

The Neutral (equal good & bad)

Ben Affleck makes a good Batman/Bruce Wayne & Henry Cavill is a good as Superman (more on this later). These actors are well cast in their roles. However I couldn't accept Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, or the actor who plays Lex. I felt these two roles were miscast.

 

I find it interesting that we get two idealised alpha-males with Batman & Superman (muscles & 6-pack) but Wonder Woman is a waif? Yeah, Wonder Woman for me has a different figure.

 

The Ugly

The director is a fan of Ayn Rand. Also the Friedrich Nietzsche elements in the film. If Nietzsche & Rand had a film-baby it would be BvS. Superman is portrayed as a literal Nietzsche Übermensch. Also it is clear that in this film "God is Dead" which is another element of Nietzsche. Nihilism is another thing I got from it. This isn't a film about heroes, but where hope--like God --is dead. Needless to say, I would have enjoyed it more if Nietzsche (and Rand, and anti-realism) was left out. Superman was created by two Jews in the in the mould of Moses, and by later writers as a Christ-like figure. The Superman of BvS is the antithesis of that.

 

Another thing stemming from the emphasis on Rand and Nietzsche is that universal ideals like justice or goodness aren't present; they can't be, as that is a consequence of these two philosophies. Relativism, subjectivity & individualism are the norms. For instance a future Justice League's notion of justice is their subjective, relative and individualistic (as an organisation) and hence just enforce their brand of "justice", not an unbiased universal notion of justice. Basically these film sets up the Justice League as good natured thugs. So yeah I don't like the influence of Rand and Nietzsche in the film--despise it in fact.

 

It is postmodernism trying to understand heroism by questioning "what makes a hero" in a framework of Rand and Nietzsche, and coming up with a superficial answer (as that is a defining element of postmodern thought as I understand it). By comparison Captain America film series never needs to question the moral character of its titular hero; he is heroic and moves on from there. As such the Marvel films feel more grand because there is real heroism, an authenticity to the portrayal of heroism. In other words the baggage of Rand & that other guy are a weight that hold BvS down -- like a ball & chain.

 

(To be sure, Civil War has its flaws, which I have written about at length, just not posted yet)

 

 

 

Of what zslane posted is aligned with my point of view (expressed from his perspective of course), however I originally missed this post of his which makes a good summary:

Gal Gadot is the Wonder Woman for the video-game-driven, kick-ass female action star era we are entering into rather than the wholesome, all-American beauty queen era we left behind four decades ago.

I’m more used to picturing Diana Prince aka Wonder Woman as a “all-American beauty queen” which made the representation of Wonder Woman in BvS by comparison to appear waif-like. For example, I’ve seen most depictions of Wonder Woman having a body type like Cindy Crawford, thus my reaction that Gal has been miscast in the role. It would be similar if Jim Parsons (Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory) was cast as Superman. He would be convincing as Clark Kent, but not as Superman, as the general depictions of Superman don’t match Jim’s slender body.

 

Basically it is about my notion of Wonder Woman’s body form/shape and matching that with reasonable fidelity with a suitable actress. For me, that wasn’t Gal. To be fair, Gal is a capable actress even though this is the only role I’ve seen her in. And there are other superhero characters I think she would be great at. I am just not convinced she was the character of Wonder Woman like I was with Ben Affleck as Batman/Bruce Wayne & Henry Cavill as Superman/Clark Kent. I’m now interested in seeing Gal in other roles —possibly—Keeping Up with the Joneses which is one of her recent ones.

 

BTW Gal has a very cute daughter!

 

I was also going to mention Hugh Jackman as Wolverine but Andrew_A beat me to it. As I’ve never read much of Wolverine in the comics his height isn’t an issue for me.

 

Writing this post made me want to find out about the historical group we call “The Amazons”. I found this reference which suggests the idea of an all-woman nation is an exaggeration by the Greeks not used to seeing women in battle—apart of Pallas Athena. Also the story of Atlantis recorded by Plato has Athenian women soldiers, numbering in the thousands.

 

David Anthony notes, About 20% of Scythian-Sarmatian "warrior graves" on the lower Don and lower Volga contained females dressed for battle as if they were men, a style that may have inspired the Greek tales about the Amazons.”” (Anthony, David W. (2007). The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-05887-3.)

[Bazza]

Okay, when I made my original comment about Lynda vs. Gal, I was kind of joking. I did not intend to start some sort of body shaming flame war. If this discussion stops being civil I will start posting nudes of myself in all my wrinkly, spotted glory. You have been warned.

For me your comments are water under the bridge, I've reread the past few pages and can't remember your post. Don't worry about it. 

 

From my perspective It is about the fidelity and suitability of actor/actress to personify the character. My example in my previous post is Jim Parsons as Superman. 

 

It is not about body shaming, but the believability of an actor/actress to personify that role. Would anyone accept Schwarzenegger as this character (spoilered for dramatic effect)

 

 

 

 

 

Me neither. 

 

An actors body type/shape plays some part in the casting process as the audience needs to believe they are that character. Arnie as spoilered character would not be believable. That is my criticism.

[BoloOfEarth]

If this discussion stops being civil I will start posting nudes of myself in all my wrinkly, spotted glory. You have been warned.

 

...and that's when the destruction began.

 

IMO your tagline has never been more fitting.

[Old Man]

If you think that tagline fits, wait'll you see this g-string.

[TheDarkness]

I think the standard of less hip and breast than Linda Carter being 'waif-like' makes almost all the women in the world waifs.

 

Further, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the radical idea that the producers of the TV show were not looking at certain of Linda Carter's aspects and then looking at the costume and saying, "Man, this is totally going to sell, because of the fan sensibilities and the keen understanding by the viewer of Amazonian features based on classical sources that may or may not actually describe them this way." And the depiction in comics, not much different.

 

Where is the outcry over her not having one breast removed for more effective combat skills like the amazons were said to have done?

 

Honestly, Linda Carter never, in a million years, could pull off the physical aspects needed to actually do the action that wasn't done in the old show ONLY because special effects were limited back then. If they could have, they would have. We all know that for decades, super hero shows and movies simply could not capture the comic book fights.

 

This is not anything against Linda Carter, but Gadot can pull off the action. Linda Carter has never given the impression of someone who could look threatening with sword, spear, or shield. I'm pretty sure she'd agree with this statement. Gadot did just fine doing so. Summarizing them as both having skinny limbs is meaningless. Not all skinny is the same. Some skinny is athletic. And some athleticism has more carryover to actually pulling off the warrior thing.

 

There is no way that MOST beauty queens, Linda Carter included, could pull off the role of a modern action hero for film. And that depiction, as far as the action, is far closer to the source material, comic books, than it ever was before, whatever our opinions of where the movies digress from the source material.

 

Not to mention she's a gorgeous woman who looks Greek. And looks like a grown woman.

 

Now, Michael Keaton, totally wrong casting. I always pictured Beetlejuice as taller.

[TheDarkness]

Oh, and, as an Israeli citizen, she's actually got military training. I'm starting to wonder how much BETTER casting is possible for this.

 

Dark hair, olive skin, military training, actually can do the action.

 

Anyway, as an aside, here's an article about the movie, don't know if anyone has posted it yet.

 

http://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-solo-film-versus-batman-v-superman/

[slikmar]

Just out of curiosity, Bazza, since I liked Linda Carter in the 70s and think Gadot will be fine now and does somewhat look the part, who among current actresses, given that Linda Carter can't play the role, would you suggest? Closest person I can think of, off hand, that looks a lot like Linda would be Katy Perry, but I don't think she could pull off the physical parts.

[Bazza]

Off the top of my head Morena Baccarin or Christina Hendricks (below), and I'd be happy with Eva Green; too throw three names out there. 

I'd cast Marina Sirtis & Nia Vardalos in either of these two roles: Penthesilea and her sister Hippolyta.

 

 

'I'D PLAY WONDER WOMAN IN A HEARTBEAT' Says Christina Hendricks

http://www.gigwise.com/news/66934/'I'd-Play-Wonder-Woman-In-A-Heartbeat'-Says-Christina-Hendricks

 

Why Zack Snyder Cast Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman: She “Really Held Her Own With Ben”

http://www.themarysue.com/waiting-for-gadot/

[Bazza]

One the subject of Amazon's removal of one of their breasts for combat:
 

The Amazons: Lives & Legends of Warrior Women Across the Ancient World by Adrienne Mayor, book review
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-amazons-lives-legends-of-warrior-women-across-the-ancient-world-by-adrienne-mayor-book-review-9799090.html

This is the question which Adrienne Mayor seeks to answer in her hugely informative and entertaining Encyclopaedia Amazonica, which ranges across the ancient world from Greece to China, via the Russian steppes (whose nomadic women perhaps come closest to being real Amazons).
 
She's an excellent tour guide. She begins by dispelling one of the most basic myths about Amazons: that they cut off one breast to make it easier for them to use a bow and arrows. Not only does Mayor rubbish the idea that an archer would be remotely impeded by her breasts (with photographs of modern archers on horseback, all happily symmetrical), but she does so in a chapter entitled "Breasts: One or Two?"
 
She suggests a plausible origin for this peculiar myth. The Greeks loved etymology, no matter how spurious. And the word "Amazon", to an ancient Greek ear, sounds a lot like "a-" meaning "without", and "mastos" meaning "breast". But, as she points out, we have hundreds of images of Amazons on vases and drinking cups, and none of them is missing one of her breasts.

 

So it seems that this is an "old wives tale" and didn't happen in real life. 

[Bazza]

If you think that tagline fits, wait'll you see this g-string.

Can't wait. 

 

( )

[TheDarkness]

 

Off the top of my head Morena Baccarin or Christina Hendricks (below), and I'd be happy with Eva Green; too throw three names out there. 

I'd cast Marina Sirtis & Nia Vardalos in either of these two roles: Penthesilea and her sister Hippolyta.

 

 

'I'D PLAY WONDER WOMAN IN A HEARTBEAT' Says Christina Hendricks

http://www.gigwise.com/news/66934/'I'd-Play-Wonder-Woman-In-A-Heartbeat'-Says-Christina-Hendricks

 

Why Zack Snyder Cast Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman: She “Really Held Her Own With Ben”

http://www.themarysue.com/waiting-for-gadot/

 

Two of those three have sticks for arms. One probably is as far from looking greek as possible.

 

In fairness, they all have two things in common. I'm seeing a common thread here.

[Bazza]

In fairness, they all have two things in common. I'm seeing a common thread here.

You are right, they all have two arms & legs.

[zslane]

We must be talking about present-day Morena Baccarin because the Morena Baccarin I saw at the Serenity premier was every bit as much a "waif" as Gal Gadot, just much shorter (Gal is 5'10").

[TheDarkness]

You are right, they all have two arms & legs.

But two of the three have waifier arms than Gadot. And the third doesn't look Greek. It's the eyes, right?

[Bazza]

But two of the three have waifier arms than Gadot. And the third doesn't look Greek. It's the eyes, right?

[TheDarkness]

I'm just trying to determine what aspect of Gadot's appearance appears more like a girl than a woman to some when compared to the other three. At least one of the three's face looks much younger than Gadot's, and that's the only one less waify.

 

Or, we could argue whether breasts are canon or not. I'm game.

 

Mostly cheeky on that, I'll switch geers. EDIT: It occurred to me, on reading my post, that the above could have come off the wrong way. I am actually under the assumption that you prefer the actresses you listed because of performances you liked of theirs, I was just razzing you about choosing three actresses with more pronounced cleavage than Gadot who actually, physically, two out of the three don't fulfill the physical requirements you described, and the one who does, looks far younger than Gadot and in no way Greek. I do not want to see Old Man's overstuffed G-string.

 

Physical types for superhero casting is a weird zone. I'd imagine some might think of WW having a more round face, or less. The problem they face is she needs to seem a warrior, yet the same people who won't like a waif might be even more against anything above body sculpting, as opposed to a fighting physique. It's kind of a catch-22 for casters.

 

Even for the males, athletic is the norm, but different eras have more or less muscle. We think of Flash as thinner, but there was a time that was only relative to the others, and, on his own, he was massively drawn. Some traits can hardly be considered canon simply because there wasn't a single character of note for decades that didn't have that trait, ergo, WW cleavage.

 

I actually like the actress who plays Black Widow, while finding the story arc they wrote for her total oatmeal. And she looks NOTHING like the character. While the actor in the first X-Men movies playing Cyclops looks just right, yet, I could care less about his role.

 

The problem with playing to fan expectations is that the fans don't really know what will make the best depiction, and don't have one opinion.

[Bazza]

I'm just trying to determine what aspect of Gadot's appearance appears more like a girl than a woman to some when compared to the other three. At least one of the three's face looks much younger than Gadot's, and that's the only one less waify.

 

Or, we could argue whether breasts are canon or not. I'm game.

 

Mostly cheeky on that, I'll switch geers. EDIT: It occurred to me, on reading my post, that the above could have come off the wrong way. I am actually under the assumption that you prefer the actresses you listed because of performances you liked of theirs, I was just razzing you about choosing three actresses with more pronounced cleavage than Gadot who actually, physically, two out of the three don't fulfill the physical requirements you described, and the one who does, looks far younger than Gadot and in no way Greek. I do not want to see Old Man's overstuffed G-string.

 

Physical types for superhero casting is a weird zone. I'd imagine some might think of WW having a more round face, or less. The problem they face is she needs to seem a warrior, yet the same people who won't like a waif might be even more against anything above body sculpting, as opposed to a fighting physique. It's kind of a catch-22 for casters.

 

Even for the males, athletic is the norm, but different eras have more or less muscle. We think of Flash as thinner, but there was a time that was only relative to the others, and, on his own, he was massively drawn. Some traits can hardly be considered canon simply because there wasn't a single character of note for decades that didn't have that trait, ergo, WW cleavage.

 

I actually like the actress who plays Black Widow, while finding the story arc they wrote for her total oatmeal. And she looks NOTHING like the character. While the actor in the first X-Men movies playing Cyclops looks just right, yet, I could care less about his role.

 

The problem with playing to fan expectations is that the fans don't really know what will make the best depiction, and don't have one opinion.

 

Along with watching BvS in July this year, below is a list of the films I’ve watched since November. Of those I only aborted one, Paper Towns (may give it another go), and got really bored with The Book Thief & Don’t Think Twice. The one I enjoyed most was The Extraordinary Adventures Of Adele Blanc-Sec. I’m also glad I watched Denial. 

 

Film list watched since Nov.

Jason Bourne, Ghostbusters, Bridget Jones Baby, My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2, The Secret Life Of Pets, Finding Nemo, Finding Dory, Pete's Dragon, The BFG, Hop, Ice Age 4 Continental Drift, Ice Age 5 Collision Course, Blinky Bill the Movie, Zootopia, London Has Fallen, The Prestige, Epic, Underdog, The Book Thief, The Extraordinary Adventures Of Adele Blanc-Sec, Dad's Army, Eddie the Eagle, Don't Think Twice, Deep Web, Citizenfour, San Andreas, Suicide Squad Extended Cut, Sully, Storks, Snowden, Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children, The Magnificent Seven, Swallows and Amazons, LEGO Frozen Northern Lights, Denial, Paper Towns (aborted), W., About Time, The Chamber, The Stanford Prison Experiment (currently watching).

 

I have not bothered to attempt to recast any of these films simply because it is silly. You either accept the actor/actress as that character or you don’t. It is for the most part an instinctual thing, you connect with their performance or you don’t. Ergo I didn’t connect with Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor (others on this thread stated likewise), however I though I liked him Now You See Me & Now You See Me 2. As I have mentioned previously I didn’t find Gal Gadot believable in the role of Wonder Woman for the reasons I’ve stated, however I did the two other male leads. 

 

Margot Robbie gave the standout performance in Suicide Squad, and I love that the two Australians (Robbie & Jai Courtney) made a bet on the Australian rugby league State of Origin between Queensland & New South Wales, with the loser getting a tattoo of the winner. Jai is currently sporting a Qld tattoo.

 

Although they should have recast the role of Edward Snowden in Citizenfour. Who believes that? Joseph Gordon-Levitt was much more believable in the same role. #sarcasm 

 

I'm currently watching The Stanford Prison Experiment film and halfway through it. Now if you excuse me, Ezra Miller as Daniel Culp/Prisoner 8612 — is totally wrong, as I tracked down a photo of the real Daniel Culp and he doesn’t have any facial hair. As per your advice, I have to fan-cast the role.… #sarcasm

[TheDarkness]

I hadn't heard of The Extraordinary Adventures Of Adele Blanc-Sec. I'll have to look that one up.

 

I was in the mood for a horror movie. My wife and I watch a lot of horror movies, she leans toward the ones where everyone is so mind numbingly stupid that I begin to wonder whether the monster or killer is even necessary for the same effect. Anyway, I'm three weeks out from getting back to the states and seeing my wife, so it gives us something to babble about on Skype.

 

Threw on what I thought was a horror movie, had good reviews apparently, but perhaps I should have actually read the reviews. The Eyes of My Mother. It's in black and white. It is not horror. It is drama. Disturbing. I don't know what my final decision on it was, other than that it definitely is disturbing, and definitely not what I was in the mood for.

 

Asked my wife what she thought of it. She said she read a couple reviews, and realized that she didn't want to watch it.

 

That said, the casting was good.

 

Also watched, not a new movie, but The Chef. Not disturbing. I liked it. The cuban sandwiches were perfectly cast.

[BoloOfEarth]

My wife and I watch a lot of horror movies, she leans toward the ones where everyone is so mind numbingly stupid that I begin to wonder whether the monster or killer is even necessary for the same effect.

 

So I'm guessing that she loved Tucker and Dave vs. Evil? 

[zslane]

Physical types for superhero casting is a weird zone. 

 

Especially since comic book "superhero" physique proportions are nearly impossible to find in the real world, particularly if you are also looking for acting talent and directability. Every casting choice is a compromise of one kind or another. Besides, we nerds need something to complain about no matter what, right?

[Joe Walsh]

There's a nice little Q&A in the NY Times with Lynda Carter today:

 

Q. There seems to be some disagreement about what a feminist icon should look like.

A. What I find interesting is that they didn’t look at the larger picture. I agree that the issue of gender equality is much larger than any character is, and I understand that a comic book character should not be representative of something that is that important. I agree with that. What I disagree with is this idea about Wonder Woman. She’s an iconic defender, she’s archetypal. It’s the ultimate sexist thing to say that’s all you can see, when you think about Wonder Woman, all you can think about is a sex object.

 

Q. What about those skimpy outfits?

A. Yeah, so? Superman had a skintight outfit that showed every little ripple, didn’t he? Doesn’t he have a great big bulge in his crotch? Hello! So why don’t they complain about that? And who says Wonder Woman is “white”? I’m half-Mexican. Gal Gadot is Israeli. The character is an Amazonian princess, not “American.” They’re trying to put her in a box, and she’s not in a box.

 

Q. Did you ever think of your character as sexy?

A. If you think of the ’70s, that was miniskirts and bikinis. I never really thought of Wonder Woman as a super-racy character. She wasn’t out there being predatory. She was saying: “You have a problem with a strong woman? I am who I am, get over it.” I never played her as mousy. I played her being for women, not against men. For fair play and fair pay.

 

Q. Some critics called Wonder Woman a “male fantasy.” But wasn’t the show more aimed at girls than boys?

A. I still have women at airports coming up to me saying: “Oh, you don’t know what it meant to me. That show got me through this difficult time, that difficult time.” That’s really where the fantasy became a reality, where Wonder Woman became something much more than a TV show or a comic book. And I’ll tell you this, when women recognize me in airports, I hold them in my arms and they cry. If a guy comes up and says, “Oh my God, I had such a crush on you when I was a teenager,” I say: “Talk to the hand. I don’t want to know.”

[Starlord]

CAN SHE ACT!!!!!

 

 

Jesus.

[Cassandra]

I vote for the woman who played President Marsdin on Supergirl as Wonder Woman.  Failing that, the actress who played Principal Powers on Sky High would have done a good job.

 

Oh, and Captain America would totally kick Batman's rump.

 

Batman acknowledge that in Justice League/Avengers.

[Hermit]

CAN SHE ACT!!!!!

 

 

Jesus.

 

She won't be playing the part of Jesus.... just Wonder Woman.

 

[Old Man]

But if she played Jesus, I'd watch that.