DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Hugh Neilson]

There are some issues that are real gems. I'll also admit that I discovered there's some real dreck in there. (Anyone remember the City Stealers taking the island of Manhattan out to sea to hold it hostage, and Hercules pulling it back into place with massive chains?) Overall, I'd say the real gems and real dreck were about equal in number, with most issues falling into the midrange of "okay but nothing spectacularly good or bad".

Why are we surprised that, on average, we see something average? That seems like the definition of the word.

 

I recall the Assistant Editors Month issue of Thor where it was “revealed” that the City Stealers story was really just a tall tale told by Hercules. That also explained why all the directions in Marvel Manhattan are the same as our earth when Herc actually dragged the island in backwards… But considering Herc of Legend once held the world up for Atlas, what’s one little island?

 

But I think the point is there have always been good comics stories and bad comics stories. Looking back it's easier to remember the good bits and forget the bad bits, whereas today I notice more ex-fans pointing at One Awful Story and using that to condemn the entire industry. Also, if you go back and re-read a lot of the great stories you remember, you may find not all of them hold up as well today. Some great story ideas, but some of the writing was pretty weak by today's standards.

Yup

 

As for superhero TV shows, I agree they weren't all awful. But even the best of them are painfully cheesy by modern standards. Mostly because the show runners refused to take the concept seriously and treated them like live-action cartoons. The fact that they were almost completely devoid of supervillains certainly didn't help. If we're grading on a curve I'd say 70s Wonder Woman and 80s Greatest American Hero are among the best of their day, but neither could compete today with Supergirl, let alone Daredevil or Jessica Jones. (Unless you really like camp, in which case more power to you but I'll be over here.)

Special effects limitations also made it tough. No doubt there was also a lot of “only Batman ever succeeded – what can we learn/lift from Batman?” going on. But some people like the over the top material (see BoloOfEarth’s comment on Ant-Man, for example, and the love for Greatest American Hero). Both can coexist – I like some comedys and some action-adventure TV shows and movies.

 

I will counter-suggest that your typical "fan" tolerates the average product produced by the medium, but if pressed on the matter would admit they don't necessarily enjoy it. Once a fan becomes invested in a character they will often stick with a title/show, even through long periods of junk, waiting for a really good story to come along. For example, a lot of people stuck with Smallville long after it jumped the shark because some folks just don't know when to let go. But let's not pretend that just because fans are frequently masochistic (or unable to discern good storytelling from mediocre/bad storytelling), that the less-than-stellar content is worthy of emulation/perpetuation.

The reality is that, if people were not buying the average product (which means that enough people are enjoying it enough to keep buying it), the stellar work would never have been produced. Your own two choices were:

 

- Dark Phoenix Saga, X-Men #129-137. Even if we start counting at #94 (the first issue after Giant Size #1 revived the series), that’s quite a few average issues before we hit the gem. We would not have gotten that far if someone had not revived a series that failed before and was running as a reprint book for several years. Issue #133 was a last-ditch effort by the writers to salvage that Wolverine character that the fans detested (the original plan was that the fall into the sewers killed him off), and it was editorial interference that resulted in Jean Grey’s death, rather than depowering, so a true development of creator vision it wasn’t. But it was a classic.

 

- Thor’s Ballad of Beta Ray Bill (#337-340) Thor had what, 20 or so years of publication before we got Beta Ray Bill. And we got him to ditch one of the tired tropes, that weakling Don Blake that Thor transformed back into. He’d never work in the movies, since they don’t have that history of “whomsoever holds this hammer shall possess the power of Thor”. No shortage of dreck in that 20 year history. Some gems as well, of course.

 

If no one bought the largely average work that came out for years or decades, we’d never have seen the occasional stellar production. Your comment on fans hanging in there is real, but implies there was something great from the outset. Have you read The Stone Men of Saturn, or the early X-Men stories? Do you consider these to be the great classics that launched the characters who, after falling into mediocrity, suddenly produced these gems? X-Men was definitely getting attention and building momentum into Dark phoenix, but Beta Ray Bill was the start of a new writer on a lackluster book.

 

So everything past Smallville S1:E2?

 

I kid. I'm not sure when it jumped the shark. I was too busy watching Lois and Chloe. Hey. I was younger and more shallow then. I've gotten out of the kiddie pool and into the wading pool now. I would say soon I'd be at the deep end, but I might just be mixing metaphors at that point.

It’s interesting how many different views there are on when the show jumped the shark, and when it was good stuff. I recall the complaints that season 1 was largely crap with the “freak of the week”, so if we had not made it through that lackluster start because a lot of people were OK watching something average at best, whatever was good to great would never have been produced.

[Bazza]

For what it is worth, I love Smallville from S1 to S10. It is the first version of Superman that I could identify with and like.

[BoloOfEarth]

Why are we surprised that, on average, we see something average? That seems like the definition of the word.

 

I recall the Assistant Editors Month issue of Thor where it was “revealed” that the City Stealers story was really just a tall tale told by Hercules. That also explained why all the directions in Marvel Manhattan are the same as our earth when Herc actually dragged the island in backwards… But considering Herc of Legend once held the world up for Atlas, what’s one little island?

 

My point wasn't that most of the stuff was average, but rather that the number of gems were roughly equal to the truly horrible stuff (at least in my non-scientific opinion based on that re-reading). 

 

If I say you're being "mean" with your comment on averages, I hope you'll take that as the pun it is, and in no way an actual criticism.

 

As to the City Stealers story being a Herc tall tale, yeah, good retcon, but that's not how it was originally presented.  (Which is why I assume you put "revealed" in quotes.)  On its own, that story is absolutely facepalm worthy.

[bigdamnhero]

Special effects limitations also made it tough. No doubt there was also a lot of “only Batman ever succeeded – what can we learn/lift from Batman?” going on. But some people like the over the top material (see BoloOfEarth’s comment on Ant-Man, for example, and the love for Greatest American Hero). Both can coexist – I like some comedys and some action-adventure TV shows and movies.

SFX were certainly a problem. But I think the main problem was that the networks and the show runners saw them as being kid stuff, basically one step up from Bugs Bunny. I remember several quotes in various magazines and so forth where the people behind the shows I was trying to love publicly dissed them and me. I particularly remember one quote about Wonder Woman (in TV Guide I think) that there were only two things keeping the show on the air, and they were the same two things that were holding up her costume. I have no problem with comedy, or even camp* as long as it's done well, or even if they're at least trying to do a decent job rather than just saying "Screw it, kids will watch anything."

 

* At least in theory; personally I have a pretty low camp threshold, but I recognize some people enjoy it.

 

If I say you're being "mean" with your comment on averages, I hope you'll take that as the pun it is, and in no way an actual criticism.

Oh dude! I'm tempted to report this post on general principle.

[Nolgroth]

For what it is worth, I love Smallville from S1 to S10. It is the first version of Superman that I could identify with and like.

 

I tend to sway based on which way my mood is that day, but on the aggregate, shows that defy the normal TV programming materials  (cop dramas, sitcoms, sports programming, "news" shows, etc.) gets a larger hall pass than the rest. Smallville was pretty awesome for its time. I imagine, looking back, it will not have aged that well. I'm not going back to check. I did that once with Airwolf and groaned. My very soul hurt. Of course, I'm one of the apparently few people that also liked X-Files with Doggett and Reyes. Go figure.

[bigdamnhero]

I never watched Smallville - it seemed too Soap Opera-ey for me.

 

Which I'll grant is not without irony coming from the guy who loves CW's superhero shows... [shrug]

[Nolgroth]

I never watched Smallville - it seemed too Soap Opera-ey for me.

 

Which I'll grant is not without irony coming from the guy who loves CW's superhero shows... [shrug]

 

I think Smallville was a test bed for the future CW shows. I can see little glimmers of Smallville in some of the episodes. 

[aylwin13]

It was a bit "Soap Opera-ey" as bdh put it; as are the new CW super-shows.

 

I have no problem with that, as I am a "Romantic" on the Allston Player chart.

[Cassandra]

I stopped watching Smallville when Lana married Lex.  I started watching it again when Kara showed up.  I sort of gave up after she left and watched the last season only to see how it ended.

 

Can't believe they didn't get Tom Welling for Superman on Supergirl.

[Cassandra]

So everything past Smallville S1:E2?

 

I kid. I'm not sure when it jumped the shark. I was too busy watching Lois and Chloe. Hey. I was younger and more shallow then. I've gotten out of the kiddie pool and into the wading pool now. I would say soon I'd be at the deep end, but I might just be mixing metaphors at that point. 

 

Lois and Clark was a fine show.  The only thing lacking was a connection to a larger DC universe aside from an offhand reference to Gotham City.  The lost of Lex Luthor hurt the show as well, and we ended up with Tempus as a substitute (delightfully played by Lane Davies).

[Bazza]

Smallville started off "Dawson Creek" then evolved into DC.

 

(Interestingly Dawson Creek is also DC)

[zslane]

The reality is that, if people were not buying the average product (which means that enough people are enjoying it enough to keep buying it), the stellar work would never have been produced.

That is a fair point (though I disagree with your underlying assumption that purchase is proof of enjoyment). And I am grateful that there are so many undiscerning consumers buying the drek, permitting me the luxury of cherry-picking only the good stuff long after initial publication. But that doesn't mean the average stuff should become the grist for the Hollywood movie mill.

 

I feel that Hollywood should be drawing only from the good stuff when they look for stories to inspire their screenplays (to show them how its done, so to speak). If they were interested in making really good superhero movies, they would take the time to understand which tropes work, which ones don't, and which ones can be altered slightly to work better for modern audiences. But I don't think Hollywood is interesting in going to that effort, just as CT has convinced me they are only interested in making conventional action movies with a superhero veneer.

[Bazza]

Maybe Hollywood is, and they are omitting the tropes you like--like reoccurring villains

[TheDarkness]

About the old super hero shows, specifically The Hulk.

 

I don't think that was a case of the show's creators seeing all comic books as children's stories and silly.

 

If you look at that show, it's entire story arcs are a common trope, from before then to long after in TV.

 

Main character [maybe in arriving in new area] meets new person, new person gets in trouble, main character faces down the source of the trouble, happy ending.

 

Story wise, Hulk was not much different than say, The Avengers(not the superheroes), The Equalizer, Nightrider, MacGyver, Touched by an Angel, etc.

 

I was young and liked the show back then, and remember it as being generally better than Wonder Woman, though I liked that as well back then, but it's pretty consistent with other TV shows from that era and for a while after as far as the story.

[Ternaugh]

About the old super hero shows, specifically The Hulk.

 

I don't think that was a case of the show's creators seeing all comic books as children's stories and silly.

 

If you look at that show, it's entire story arcs are a common trope, from before then to long after in TV.

 

Main character [maybe in arriving in new area] meets new person, new person gets in trouble, main character faces down the source of the trouble, happy ending.

 

Story wise, Hulk was not much different than say, The Avengers(not the superheroes), The Equalizer, Nightrider, MacGyver, Touched by an Angel, etc.

 

I was young and liked the show back then, and remember it as being generally better than Wonder Woman, though I liked that as well back then, but it's pretty consistent with other TV shows from that era and for a while after as far as the story.

 

The Incredible Hulk was basically The Fugitive with anger management issues, and no one-armed man.

[zslane]

Maybe Hollywood is, and they are omitting the tropes you like--like reoccurring villains

I would say that the latter is definitely true, while the former is demonstrably false.

[Lord Liaden]

Smallville started off "Dawson Creek" then evolved into DC.

 

(Interestingly Dawson Creek is also DC)

 

My circle used to refer to early seasons of Smallville as "Clark's Creek."

[Bazza]

 

My circle used to refer to early seasons of Smallville as "Clark's Creek."

 

Very relevant and true. Though I never watched Dawson's Creek so can't compare for accuracy. I've just come across a quip or two that Smallville was related to Dawson's Creek. 

[Lawnmower Boy]

 

My circle used to refer to early seasons of Smallville as "Clark's Creek."

[Cassandra]

I thought Agents of SHIELD was finally getting really good again after last night's show, but then I realized it was an episode of Wheel of Fortune. 

 

Vanna White for Ms. Marvel!

[zslane]

Smallville did suffer a bit from a first season that was "freak of the week" in nature. But the show stepped it up and got much, much better after that, at least IMO. When it came to Smallville, my personal attitude was "Come for the Lana, stay for the Lex," which held up pretty well until Lex made his exit. After that, even my crush on Kristen Kreuk couldn't keep me watching much longer.

 

For me, the show was doomed anyway because of the "No Flight, No Tights" law they lived by. Putting Clark in a black overcoat and having everyone call him The Blur was just not the Elseworlds variant of Superman I was looking for.

[sinanju]

Smallville did suffer a bit from a first season that was "freak of the week" in nature. But the show stepped it up and got much, much better after that, at least IMO. When it came to Smallville, my personal attitude was "Come for the Lana, stay for the Lex," which held up pretty well until Lex made his exit. After that, even my crush on Kristen Kreuk couldn't keep me watching much longer.

 

For me, the show was doomed anyway because of the "No Flight, No Tights" law they lived by. Putting Clark in a black overcoat and having everyone call him The Blur was just not the Elseworlds variant of Superman I was looking for.

 

For me, it was Chloe. But otherwise...yeah.

[Iuz the Evil]

Yeah, if they put him in the costume and moved past pre-superman it would've had more staying power

[Ternaugh]

Yeah, if they put him in the costume and moved past pre-superman it would've had more staying power

 

Dude, 10 seasons wasn't enough???

[Cassandra]

For me, it was Chloe. But otherwise...yeah.

 

Plus Chloe was in a Police Academy movie.