Does Champions need an intro campaign book?

[megaplayboy]

Why not follow the D&D 5e model--a complete campaign in one book? You might have to offload some of the write-ups to existing or supplemental products(e.g., enemies books), but a coherent plotline with sub-plots and interwoven storylines, progressing the heroes from 250/350/400 to 450+. There have been a few Champs books which have attempted something like this--Champions Battlegrounds, Champions Presents #1, (maybe) Classic Organizations. It would likely be a big book, but if it's well done, it'll sell.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Why not follow the D&D 5e model--a complete campaign in one book?Why not follow the D&D 5e model--a complete campaign in one book?

I do like that idea a lot, a pathfinder story arc.  But I don't see this product as being that all-inclusive.  I see it as an introductory book to help people get started with the game.  Then the campaign books can take the now-knowledgeable group into a full campaign.  By keeping it simple and small, we can make it free.

[Fedifensor]

Its possible that the MMOG guys own viper now, I do not know.  If possible I'd like to do Microfilm Madness/Viper's Nest as an adventure for the Champions Begins book but who knows.

They've said that Cryptic owns VIPER as part of the MMO deal, but DOJ has a license in perpetuity to use it.

 

Honestly, if VIPER's Nest is available, an intro campaign book becomes easy.  You already have the adventure writeups and maps...pretty much all you need is to convert the villains to 6E and create sample characters for the players to use.

[steriaca]

Who were the villains of VIPER's Nest?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Deathstroke is a good intro adventure as well, it builds from small scale encounters to a full blown fight.  But yeah, I do like Viper's Nest a lot.

 

The original bad guys were like Cheshire Cat, Brick, Bluejay, guys like that.

[Amorkca]

Cheshire Cat and Blue Jay are in the Champions Villains Group book, in the villain team GRAB.

 

But Brick has not been updated to 6E.

[steriaca]

Chester Cat is in VV2 (Grab), while Bluejay is in VV3. Brick is not been brought over in 5th/6th/Champions Complete. I don't know who else, but if Pulsar, Green Dragon, and/or Oger is in there, then there in VV3.

[steriaca]

Err, forgot Bluejay joined Grab (which would make it VV2, not VV3).

[Fedifensor]

Who were the villains of VIPER's Nest?

Er, VIPER?  

 

Seriously, though, the original adventure series had VIPER Teams (Undercover, Aerial Cavalry, Assault, Heavy Weapon), Supervillains (Brick, Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, Dragonfly, Howler, and Icicle), and (in the final adventure) the Nest Leader.

 

The revised adventure in the 1994 VIPER book added Shadowfist, Hammerhead, Blindside, members of the Crusher Gang (Pulsar, Powerhouse, Shrinker, Howler, and Icicle), the Snake Pack (Pack Master, Coral, Massasauga, and Kufi), Damage, Gravity, Phaze, and members of the Serpent Syndicate (Python, Komodo, and Hiss).  There is no mention of Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, or Dragonfly...though I could have missed something when skimming through the module.  There's a lot more variety in the types of VIPER agents, including mech pilots.

[Ninja-Bear]

I wouldn't worry too much about reusing published villains. Fuzion has a version of Pulsar and so does Hero system basic too.

[TheQuestionMan]

Bump!

[Balabanto]

There are plenty of old scenarios that have been out of print for 30 years or more. It wouldn't be difficult to update them for 6e.

 

With one exception - their maps tend to feature the old 2m hex grid. Getting rid of those would essentially require the maps to be totally redrawn. That's serious work and money.

 

Why would you want to get rid of the 2m hex grid? That is a terrible idea. Speaking as someone who has published several products, the 2m hex grid is a producer of sanity and reasonableness. It keeps older players who use previous editions grounded and things convertible between editions with minimal effort. The 1m scale makes all combats take place in areas the size of a shoebox.

 

Removing the grid has the additional ridiculous out of game effect of making mapless combats for low-income gamers, which is really mean-spirited. The size of a combat is often based on the size of a table. Lower income gamers have less space for the table, and a smaller table. My game table, which is basically a large thing my friend made, cost about 1400 dollars. Most people don't have that kind of money to burn for a 10 foot by 4 foot table that seats 10 people comfortably or about 6-7 gamers with their books, equipment, and their raw physical size. 

 

There are a million reasons to keep the grid, and almost none to getting rid of it, unless you're going to change the cost of every movement power in the game.

[assault]

There are a million reasons to keep the grid, and almost none to getting rid of it, unless you're going to change the cost of every movement power in the game.

 

The horse has already bolted. Hexes and inches went out with 5th edition.

 

One of the many reasons why I'm ambivalent about 6e.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why would you want to get rid of the 2m hex grid? That is a terrible idea. Speaking as someone who has published several products, the 2m hex grid is a producer of sanity and reasonableness. It keeps older players who use previous editions grounded and things convertible between editions with minimal effort. The 1m scale makes all combats take place in areas the size of a shoebox.

Nothing prevents a "1" or 1 square or 1 hex = 2 meters" map. The game is perfectly reverse compatible. I've known groups who required movement be bought in even numbers of " so half moves don't round. You can require movement be bought in increments of 2 meters 4 meters or 10 meters if you wish to do so.

 

Inches are an artifact of wargames. Once we get rid of "1 inch means a unit of measurement we don't actually use in the real world" artifact, using meters seems like a logical result.

[BoloOfEarth]

I've discovered DramaScape maps, which often have 1 square or hex = 3 feet, which I figure is close enough to 1 meter for me to not care.  Some of their maps cover a broader area, with 1 square or hex = 5 feet.

 

I've also used Future Armada for spaceships and space stations; they have 1 square = 5 feet (no hexes, unfortunately), but I consider them 2m squares so I don't have to hurt my head too much.

 

When I draw something on my hex map, I alternate between 1 hex = 1 meter, and 1 hex = 2 meters, depending upon the location.  Basically, I force my players (and myself) to occasionally convert movement distances and range modifiers in their heads.  But since 2m hexes just means dividing 6E movement or range by 2, it's not exactly Harvard math.

[Tasha]

I've discovered DramaScape maps, which often have 1 square or hex = 3 feet, which I figure is close enough to 1 meter for me to not care.  Some of their maps cover a broader area, with 1 square or hex = 5 feet.

 

I've also used Future Armada for spaceships and space stations; they have 1 square = 5 feet (no hexes, unfortunately), but I consider them 2m squares so I don't have to hurt my head too much.

 

When I draw something on my hex map, I alternate between 1 hex = 1 meter, and 1 hex = 2 meters, depending upon the location.  Basically, I force my players (and myself) to occasionally convert movement distances and range modifiers in their heads.  But since 2m hexes just means dividing 6E movement or range by 2, it's not exactly Harvard math.

BTW DramaScape Maps are 1" = 5' which is pretty much the industry standard thanks to D&D and it's clones. Which is close enough to 2m that no one will notice the little scale difference when you are using it for Champions. Players are pretty savvy about converting meters into hexes as long as they are clear on the scale.

[assault]

BTW DramaScape Maps are 1" = 5' which is pretty much the industry standard thanks to D&D and it's clones. Which is close enough to 2m that no one will notice the little scale difference when you are using it for Champions. Players are pretty savvy about converting meters into hexes as long as they are clear on the scale.

 

Apparently there was an old Hollywood trick of making sets slightly under size in order to make the actors look bigger.

 

Using 5' hexes to represent 2m hexes seems appropriate.

[Tasha]

Everyone talks about Viper's nest as the ultimate starter adventure. When I went back and looked at it with a thought of converting it to 6e. I found that it's more of a sandbox supplement than an actual adventure. There's really no plot given. Just info on what a Vipers is, who is inside of one and ways to use it with your adventuring group. So there's not much there as a Beginning Adventure.

[assault]

Odd. I tend to see it as being a nice little set of simple smash-em-up scenarios that are ideal for introducing the rules.

 

Tanghal Tower, Christopher Park, (Microfilm Madness - first published in an issue of Space Gamer), culminating in an attack on a VIPER base.

 

Strongly thematically connected, and thus easy for GMs to link together. (Keep doing this and you've got a campaign!)

 

The biggest problem is that you can't afford typos, which can make things confusing. Map keys are particularly important.

 

In other words, it's "Starting a Campaign for Dummies".

 

It would be nice to have a "here's another set of scenarios" that you could follow it up with. Roughly equivalents of adventures like The Island of Dr Destroyer, Escape from Stronghold and Deathstroke, not necessarily in that order.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its pretty well connected and follows a thread, but if anything its way too simplistic and direct.  It would take a bit of work to add in role playing and character story elements.  With pre-made characters, a deliberately designed structure of adding more and more to the story as a tutorial, and a book meant to be an intro it wouldn't be a problem.

 

We tried this summer, but it ended up with just 3 of us doing anything and I have too much on my plate already to write the whole thing up.

[Tasha]

Yeah its pretty well connected and follows a thread, but if anything its way too simplistic and direct.  It would take a bit of work to add in role playing and character story elements.  With pre-made characters, a deliberately designed structure of adding more and more to the story as a tutorial, and a book meant to be an intro it wouldn't be a problem.

 

We tried this summer, but it ended up with just 3 of us doing anything and I have too much on my plate already to write the whole thing up.

Also it's hard to create something by committee without someone who is in charge. A "producer" who takes everything that has been decided and keeps track of who is responsible for getting it done.

[Lord Liaden]

Most of the Champions adventures published in Digital Hero would be easy to adapt to such a purpose. They were written to fit within a couple of game sessions, many requiring no particular world background, and included NPCs with illustrations, sometimes sample PC heroes, and usually maps. And I'm pretty certain Hero Games owns the rights to them. (Or maybe Cryptic Studios, now that I think of it...)

[massey]

Yeah its pretty well connected and follows a thread, but if anything its way too simplistic and direct.  It would take a bit of work to add in role playing and character story elements.  With pre-made characters, a deliberately designed structure of adding more and more to the story as a tutorial, and a book meant to be an intro it wouldn't be a problem.

 

We tried this summer, but it ended up with just 3 of us doing anything and I have too much on my plate already to write the whole thing up.

 

I believe the biggest obstacle, besides this being a product that people would be making for free, is the lack of a good artist.  For this to really be appealing to new players, you need comic book quality art.  Not somebody who is okay with HeroMachine art.  Actual comic book quality artwork.  I thought maybe somebody here would be a good artist, but I asked around and nobody spoke up.  I don't really blame them, to make this work you'd probably need 50 good pieces of art, at least.  Without that, I don't think new players would give it a second glance.

[assault]

Yes. Art isn't free. That means it would have to be a Kickstarter-able product, which is way beyond anything we have been talking about here.

[TheDarkness]

I believe the biggest obstacle, besides this being a product that people would be making for free, is the lack of a good artist.  For this to really be appealing to new players, you need comic book quality art.  Not somebody who is okay with HeroMachine art.  Actual comic book quality artwork.  I thought maybe somebody here would be a good artist, but I asked around and nobody spoke up.  I don't really blame them, to make this work you'd probably need 50 good pieces of art, at least.  Without that, I don't think new players would give it a second glance.

I tend to think it safer to have a finished and clear product, as far as text, for an artist to work with. This way, the artist is drawing the strong points that have proven popular among the test groups who have read the text.