Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Ragitsu]

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a20149743/fox-news-cavuto-trump-fake-news-swamp/

[Lord Liaden]

31 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a20149743/fox-news-cavuto-trump-fake-news-swamp/

 

I guess it's a sign of the times that we're amazed this came out of Fox News. But it's also a sign that journalists, wherever they are -- real journalists, not pundits or shills -- still believe they have a responsibility to the truth.

[Starlord]

Connecticut votes to join interstate compact sending electoral college votes to popular vote winner.

[death tribble]

It seems the President is doing the right thing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44032005

[Lord Liaden]

Seemingly for self-serving reasons. But perhaps we should take what we can get.

[TheDarkness]

On the bright side, Stormy Daniel's lawyer has apparently found a way to convert Trump tweets directly into gravitas.

[Sociotard]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:47 PM, Sociotard said:

 

You know what, I'm going to make a pledge:

If Donald Trump 

1) Follows through with negotiations  (even if it doesn't result in NK giving up nukes; establishing dialogue suffices)

2) Does not attack NK, including a "bloody nose" strike.

3) Maintains the Iran deal

4) Doesn't let the Syrian civil war drag us into a new conflict with one of the participants (like Turkey or Russia)

5) Maintains relations with Cuba

6) Keeps his stupid trade war small

Bonus) Negotiates an end to the Yemeni conflict

 

I will vote for him in 2020. I will forgive his lies and sexual predation and killing Obamacare and the deficit-spiking tax cuts and I will vote for him.

 

*curses impotently*

Trump Tells Macron the U.S. Will Withdraw From Iran Nuclear Deal

 

We all knew it was coming when the more hawkish advisors came in, but my foolish heart kept hoping.  Trump won't make the speech until 2 PM, but it looks like all hope is lost.  Now I just have to wonder if he'll keep to mere sanctions, or if he'll wind up going full war. Because the Arabian Peninsula looks so much more peaceful after the last time we toppled a nation.

 

EDIT

 

[Ranxerox]

11 hours ago, Sociotard said:

 

*curses impotently*

Trump Tells Macron the U.S. Will Withdraw From Iran Nuclear Deal

 

We all knew it was coming when the more hawkish advisors came in, but my foolish heart kept hoping.  Trump won't make the speech until 2 PM, but it looks like all hope is lost.  Now I just have to wonder if he'll keep to mere sanctions, or if he'll wind up going full war. Because the Arabian Peninsula looks so much more peaceful after the last time we toppled a nation.

 

 

 

You set the bar for Trump getting your vote extremely low.  You asked for only one positive achievement with the rest being just a short list of items not to screw up.  You didn't even ask that he not get us into a war as long as it wasn't with someone on your list.  Still, the chances that he wouldn't screw up one of the items was extremely low, and I expect he will cross some more off your list before he is done.

 

?

 

Even though it isn't a surprise, the torpedoing of the Iran deal is incredibly sad.  That agreement was the product of years of economic and diplomatic pressure in order to get Iran to the bargaining table and months of hard work to craft an agreement that would stop Iran's nuclear program and be acceptable to both sides.  The fact of the matter is is represented a decent chance at peace.  Now all the work and care and commitment to peace is being flushed down the toilet like a McDonald combo meal three days after Trump finishes eating it.  I'm not a man who apologizes for being an American, but I kinda of feel like I should now.

 

Sorry, world.  We decided not to give peace a chance.

 

[Ragitsu]

When it comes to this Iran deal, Trump is like the new boyfriend moving in and ripping up the surprisingly decent carpeting the ex-boyfriend had laid down.

[Old Man]

Israel has already launched strikes against Iranian positions in Syria as a result of Trump’s pullout. We’ll see if things escalate any further. 

[Lord Liaden]

Trump has taken Israel's assurance that it has ironclad proof Iran is reneging on the deal, over his own intelligence services and those of his other allies, who assure him that Iran has been complying. I've seen the presentation by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of that evidence. I had a flashback to Colin Powell making the case for Iraqi WMDs.

 

Israel has multiple justifications, both strategic and political, for wanting to be more aggressive against Iran and its proxies. I wouldn't put it past their government to at the very least, heavily spin the facts to support their case. The Obama administration pressured Israel's government to be more restrained. Looks like the leash may be off.

[Badger]

I do admit I give Israel some leeway, since they are the ones that actually have to deal with the fallout of our constantly insane Mid East policies.  I think I was too hard on Obama for some things, but in this case, I never believed Obama understood what Israel has to deal with,  or possibly even cared.

 

The Iran deal was always a mix for me.  On the surface it sounded rosy and all, but it seemed to have the premise of being a little too trusting of Iran to be contradictory to everything they have done since 1979, and I for one, saw no reason to believe there would be a change.  Cant say, I truly wanted to stomp the deal in the dust, but I couldn't shake the fact that I fully believed 20 years later, I would be saying "how friggin stupid were we, then?"

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

To my understanding (and someone more in the know may contradict that), the key point was Iran's allowing independent inspectors access to their nuclear facilities to verify their compliance. Again to my understanding, Iran has fully complied with that requirement.

 

I don't think the deal was ever intended to solve all the problems Iran exacerbates in the Middle East, or to address all of Israel's understandable security issues. Just to take the concern over an imminently-nuclear-armed Iran off the table. From Israel's point of view that may have left them holding the short end of the stick.

 

Of broader concern is Donald Trump's penchant for pulling out of standing agreements negotiated by his predecessors. This is a common "hardball" bargaining tactic he's used in the past, which may be justified when all he's concerned about is the benefit to himself and his immediate circle. But there's going to an America after Trump (we all hope), and in future other nations will believe the word of the American government can't be trusted, and any deal struck will last at most only through one presidency.

[Lawnmower Boy]

16 hours ago, Old Man said:

Israel has already launched strikes against Iranian positions in Syria as a result of Trump’s pullout. We’ll see if things escalate any further. 

You can't spell "escalation" without doing jet fighters with your hands and going "pew-pew-pew whee!"

[Lord Liaden]

On 5/9/2018 at 6:19 PM, Lawnmower Boy said:

You can't spell "escalation" without doing jet fighters with your hands and going "pew-pew-pew whee!"

 

I'm saddened that I can picture Donald Trump doing exactly that.

[Starlord]

Hmmm.

 

*Tries to imagine Trump being able to spell escalation*

[RDU Neil]

I'd like to think I just missed it... but this is the kind of thing I only seem to read about in foreign press.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/11/rakem-balogun-interview-black-identity-extremists-fbi-surveillance?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=274515&subid=24646434&CMP=GT_US_collection

 

Gee, I wonder why.

[Ragitsu]

One wonders if John McCain would have been stridently anti-torture if he hadn't been tortured and therefore gained a measure of empathy. Still: when it comes to solidarity on certain political topics, i'll take who I can get.

[Ragitsu]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-unloads-on-homeland-security-secretary-in-lengthy-immigration-tirade/2018/05/10/f0ded152-54a0-11e8-9c91-7dab596e8252_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4964fe5be347

 

Does baby want his bottle?

[Badger]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:55 PM, Lord Liaden said:

To my understanding (and someone more in the know may contradict that), the key point was Iran's allowing independent inspectors access to their nuclear facilities to verify their compliance. Again to my understanding, Iran has fully complied with that requirement.

 

I don't think the deal was ever intended to solve all the problems Iran exacerbates in the Middle East, or to address all of Israel's understandable security issues. Just to take the concern over an imminently-nuclear-armed Iran off the table. From Israel's point of view that may have left them holding the short end of the stick.

 

Of broader concern is Donald Trump's penchant for pulling out of standing agreements negotiated by his predecessors. This is a common "hardball" bargaining tactic he's used in the past, which may be justified when all he's concerned about is the benefit to himself and his immediate circle. But there's going to an America after Trump (we all hope), and in future other nations will believe the word of the American government can't be trusted, and any deal struck will last at most only through one presidency.

 

Yeah, I do understand that part.  I just remember how well inspecting in Iraq in the late 1990s (I know I am somewhat fuzzy on details, but I do remember the end result wasn't pleasant).  I just felt that the deal depended heavily on A)Iran being trustworthy B)if not, we would be tough if not.   A pointed toward since 1979, hell no.  B said given the chaotic climate of current politics not likely.  So, it resulted in me just being more worrisome, as it could give us and Israel a false sense of thinking we stopped Iran from being inevitably nuclear-armed.

 

Just my thoughts.  And I wasn't for dropping the deal, as we obviously don't have an alternate plan.  About the only thing this accomplished, was we were the one who broke the agreement rather Iran inevitably breaking it in 5 years.  

[Ragitsu]

The United States government has been d***ing over Iran since the 1950s and just recently broke off a deal with them. I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on if we want to hurl admonishments their way.

[Badger]

Perhaps, but given Iran shenanigans over the last 40 years, the only people I will feel sorry for on that one were the actual ones who got screwed over in the 1950s.  

 

[Old Man]

To be fair, the problem is the Iranian theocracy, not the Iranian people. The latter harbor no ill will toward the US or Israel, and would prefer it if the clerics would drop the terror campaigns and join reality so that Iran can have trade and jobs. That’s why they attempted an overthrow eight brief years ago. 

[Badger]

Exactly.  I have great respect for their people, I have none for their tyrants.  That overthrow attempt was one of the few "Arab Spring" movements that I really thought would help make area and world a better place,  it was a tragedy it was the one that didn't work out.  I'm sorry, we did them wrong in the past, but it will not deter me from calling out their current govts evils and deceits.  (I didn't mean to come off as critical towards Ragitsu,  but I am not the American govt, I am but a citizen who wasn't even alive in the 1950s).   

 

I cant give the mullahs a pass, because the shah was a pile of crap (which I don't say anyone is doing, but I am making myself clear, personally on that)

[TheDarkness]

On 5/13/2018 at 1:09 AM, Badger said:

Perhaps, but given Iran shenanigans over the last 40 years, the only people I will feel sorry for on that one were the actual ones who got screwed over in the 1950s. 

To clarify, the dicking over continued until 1979, and, in fact, part of the reason that Khomeini ended up in power was also tied to how we tended to support far right nutjobs in the region, and at best turned a blind eye to, and at worst, encouraged their brutal suppression of anyone left of far, far right.

 

By the time the revolution occurred, the left in Iran was crushed to such an extent that it was child's play for the religious extremists to co-opt the revolution that they were only a part of, and then deal the final blow to the left.

 

There are some good state department papers on this process across the middle east, they were mostly written in relation to the rise of politicized Islam, before the rise of militant branches.