Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[TheDarkness]

22 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The practice you cite was far less prevalent in the past, but in this millennium has become much more common. But what I'm talking about is vicious personal attacks against children who were already victims, over political differences. It wasn't long ago at all that any borderline sane public figure would never dream of making such remarks in the open, because he/she would have been universally tarred and feathered in the court of public opinion. To be fair, those who have made recent comments in that vein have received a storm of condemnation causing them to duck and cover (which makes you wonder which parties are really the "cowards"), but that they would think to do it at all is a disheartening sign of the times.

I think it's the same practice, it's just that this is the first time kids have been so at the forefront, and the pundits are acting exactly how they have been acting for some time now.

 

Recently had a coworker listening to a local conservative radio station. Now, I'm in Kansas, so it is far right, I have perfectly reasonable republican friends who don't listen to these stations and don't buy into the approach this station uses. I am tempted to sometime listen to it again and just put a check on a piece of paper every time someone says something or someone is an existential threat, evil, or part of a conspiracy. It was a near constant.

[death tribble]

The latest firing from the Trump administration

 

[Cygnia]

Leaked: A Year Inside The Failed Neo-Nazi Traditionalist Worker Party

[Doc Shadow]

Something to think about.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/fascism-will-doorstep-dont-act-immediately-yale-historian/

[Ragitsu]

Principles over party. Policy over politics.

[Iuz the Evil]

Wait, what? I had considered myself pretty informed on a number of issues. Immigration Court being a civil proceeding and the implications of that for detained children had honestly never occurred to me. 

 

Holy crap. That's incredibly awful.

 

[Sociotard]

I haven't done it yet, but that is a show that needs line by line fact checking and looking for alternative points if view for the facts.

 

I know they have been caught getting things wrong in the past

[Lord Liaden]

That's only fair -- it's what they do to the statements of the people they feature on their show. But at the very least it starts a discussion of issues that could easily be overlooked otherwise, and of people who aren't being held accountable for their words and actions.

[Watchman Mk. IV]

10 hours ago, Sociotard said:

I haven't done it yet, but that is a show that needs line by line fact checking and looking for alternative points if view for the facts.

 

I know they have been caught getting things wrong in the past

 

 

They obviously overstate some things for comedic effect (the Tot Court skit in the above show, for example), but I haven't encountered any of the basic facts that they've gotten wrong.  Got any cites for that?

[Ragitsu]

11 hours ago, Sociotard said:

I haven't done it yet, but that is a show that needs line by line fact checking and looking for alternative points if view for the facts.

 

I know they have been caught getting things wrong in the past

 

Advocatus diaboli.

[Sociotard]

2 hours ago, Watchman Mk. IV said:

 

 

They obviously overstate some things for comedic effect (the Tot Court skit in the above show, for example), but I haven't encountered any of the basic facts that they've gotten wrong.  Got any cites for that?

 

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/may/14/john-oliver/john-oliver-says-28-percent-kentucky-internet/

 

He claimed that 28 Percent of Kentucky residents had no internet access.  He got that figure off a survey that indicated only 72 percent claimed to have accessed it, whether by home or library or something.  Except, that's an awful way to measure "access". I haven't seen "Black Panther", but there is a theater in town showing it. I have access, I just can't justify the logistical and financial hurdles to go see it. So, just because someone in Kentucky decided they don't need the internet or can't afford it, doesn't mean they don't have access.

[Old Man]

Your link rates Oliver's statement as "half true"; his statement is erroneous in the way you mention, but the overall point is that the people of Kentucky lag behind most of the country in Internet access or use.  However, it's important not to try to extrapolate a source's accuracy from one incident; it would be better to try and get a sense of the source's truthiness overall.

 

[Sociotard]

Sure, Alex Jones he isn't.  Even so, comedy-anchors don't have the format to give an even-handed assessment of a situation. They have to mock, and that means they can't give very even coverage. Better than those facebook-meme things, (which are even less truthy than Jones), but not the best source.

 

There was a coal bit he did, where his facts were accurate. He pointed out that while the coal industry did shrink under Obama, the coal industry had been shrinking for a long time. Fine. That is accurate. But he didn't mention that some of Obama's policies (preventing opening new mines, etc) did not slow down the rate of shrink. Trump can't save coal, but he can prolong its death.

Now maybe coal should not be saved. I could get behind that. But pointing out that coal had been dying for some time, and acting like Obama had NOTHING to do with it, is editorial bias at fairly extreme levels.

 

What I'm say is, if you see something on a comedy news program (Oliver, Bee, whatever) and that thing leaves you outraged, go looking for other points of view. It is an awful aspect of the modern world, but our news is increasingly polarized/tribalized. The more popular sources of news need to make you feel something, not satisfy curiosity or inform. They need you to fear, to mock, to hate, because that is what will drive their ratings.

[Lord Liaden]

There has always been a place for criticism, for satire, for an obviously biased perspective, in the discussion of public affairs. It promotes interest, highlights issues that might otherwise have been ignored, and can motivate people to action. What alarms me is that such activities increasingly dominate the discussion, to the point where attempts at truthfulness and objectivity are being drowned out.

 

And before anyone asserts to the contrary, sincere aspiration to truth and balance existed in the media in my lifetime. I saw it. I heard respected journalists passionately defend it. Everyone acknowledged that absolute objectivity is impossible, but it was widely held as an ideal worth striving toward.

[Ragitsu]

This talk of "balance" has reminded me that all too many people in my nation confuse neutrality with objectivity.

 

Neutrality -> "Side A says this. Side B says that. Both sides are equal./We leave it to you to decide who is correct."

Objectivity -> "Side A says this. Side B says that. The facts show that what Side B says is true whereas Side A is either horribly misinformed on the matter or perhaps deliberately deceitful."

[Old Man]

5 hours ago, Sociotard said:

Now maybe coal should not be saved. I could get behind that. But pointing out that coal had been dying for some time, and acting like Obama had NOTHING to do with it, is editorial bias at fairly extreme levels.

 

Certainly Obama wasn't going out of his way to save coal, but neither did he do anything to kill it.  Renewables, fracking, natural gas, and the resulting economics have inflicted the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique on coal, and coal has taken about two steps out of the five it has left.

[wcw43921]

It's A Girl!

[Pattern Ghost]

10 hours ago, Sociotard said:

It is an awful aspect of the modern world, but our news is increasingly polarized/tribalized.

 

I heard there's an unbiased news source out there somewhere. It's just past the rainbow unicorn fields, I think.

[csyphrett]

The FBI has seized Mike Cohen's paperwork. The guy approving the paperwork was McCabe's temporary  replacement selected by Sessions.

 

CES 

[RDU Neil]

2 hours ago, csyphrett said:

The FBI has seized Mike Cohen's paperwork. The guy approving the paperwork was McCabe's temporary  replacement selected by Sessions.

 

CES 

 

and in follow up, he goes full fascist... equating himself with the country...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/09/michael-cohen-raid-trump-lawyer-fbi-mueller-documents?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=270836&subid=24646434&CMP=GT_US_collection

[Old Man]

He's large enough to qualify as a country.

 

Meanwhile (spoilered for size):

 



 

[Watchman Mk. IV]

On 4/9/2018 at 1:02 PM, Old Man said:

Your link rates Oliver's statement as "half true"; his statement is erroneous in the way you mention, but the overall point is that the people of Kentucky lag behind most of the country in Internet access or use.  However, it's important not to try to extrapolate a source's accuracy from one incident; it would be better to try and get a sense of the source's truthiness overall.

 

 

And, just for comparison (and less pretty because I didn't go to the effort that Old Man did), Herr Trump's scores:

 

• True 25 (5%)
• Mostly True 62 (11%)
• Half True 83 (15%)
• Mostly False 121 (22%)
• False 173 (32%)
• Pants on Fire 79 (15%)

It actually surprises me that one in three things he says is at least half-true.

[Ragitsu]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-fire-fbi/index.html

 

Mueller ought to quote Dirty Harry at some point before this fiasco is over.

[Old Man]

Hmm, I wonder where I can park for the protest.  It's at the federal building downtown, and there is nowhere to park downtown that doesn't cost a ridiculous amount of money.

 

Despite the time I spend here in this thread, I'm one of the least political people I know.  The very fact that I'm even considering showing up at a protest is the clearest sign yet that things are Not Okay.

[Ranxerox]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-fire-fbi/index.html

 

Mueller ought to quote Dirty Harry at some point before this fiasco is over.

 

Bah! Things said by Ms Sanders reflect neither reality nor whats going on inside of the Trump White House.  Michael Wolff's book was just scurrilous, gossip mongering, and it was still a more accurate description of White House happenings than any Sarah's news conferences.