Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[unclevlad]

If the man's comments are accurate...and dispatch logs should reflect those calls...then that police department's response would seem likely to come under serious review.

[DShomshak]

Another story I've read has Sherriff Capers attributing the slow response to having only 3 deputies to cover a very large area. Everyone was simply far away at the time. This is plausible, but... Stories also say this was not the first time neighbors complained of Mr Oropeza's gunfire, and police had talked to him before. I suppose that's one for the "Get your own gun for home defense" side. I would prefer a policy of taking guns away from people who use them irresponsibly, just like taking licenses from people who drive irresponsibly.

 

Side note: Gov. Abbott brought up the alleged immigration status of both Mr Oropeza and Mr Garcia's family. Props to Sherriff Capers for saying firmly that this does not matter. Murdering children is murdering children.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pattern Ghost]

4 hours ago, DShomshak said:

I would prefer a policy of taking guns away from people who use them irresponsibly,

 

Should be a one strike you're out deal, IMO. All it would take is making firearms-involved negligence a low level felony, and that's loss of rights for the person convicted.

[archer]

8 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Another story I've read has Sherriff Capers attributing the slow response to having only 3 deputies to cover a very large area. Everyone was simply far away at the time. This is plausible, but... Stories also say this was not the first time neighbors complained of Mr Oropeza's gunfire, and police had talked to him before. I suppose that's one for the "Get your own gun for home defense" side. I would prefer a policy of taking guns away from people who use them irresponsibly, just like taking licenses from people who drive irresponsibly.

 

Side note: Gov. Abbott brought up the alleged immigration status of both Mr Oropeza and Mr Garcia's family. Props to Sherriff Capers for saying firmly that this does not matter. Murdering children is murdering children.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I'll admit I haven't read anything about that case.

 

But I did have a friend from elementary school who, years later, robbed a bank in a rural community.

 

You'd be very fortunate to be able to make the trip from the police station to the bank in as little as 25 minutes. And the single paved road connecting the two locations had a large number of, unbanked, 90 degree turns so it was impossible to just "go faster" to get there more quickly.

 

And 25 minutes response time was for a danged bank robbery.

 

So I could swallow the sheriff's excuse of "big area and no one close" in some places, unless someone showed otherwise.

 

On the other hand, I'm sure the police could have found a valid excuse to arrest or detain the guy before that incident if they'd really wanted to.

[Iuz the Evil]

Yeah, where I live we have only 6 deputies covering the County at a time and we are in the North Bay Area. They’re intentionally spread out but response time can vary. In the back regions it could be 30+ minutes, for sure.
 

As to a reason to intervene, I would respectfully disagree with the statement by the Sheriff regarding the relevance of immigration status specific to Mr Oropeza, as he was not lawfully able to acquire the firearm he was in possession of based on said undocumented immigration status. Unless I’m mistaken (which is possible) one needs to be a legal resident of the State to do so with a valid ID and a valid “alien number”. He appears to have been violating Federal Law simply through firearms ownership. Had that existing law (18 USC §922(g), it appears, which prohibits a person who “is illegally or unlawfully in the United States” from possessing “any firearm or ammunition”) been enforced, in this case it might have saved lives. The Sheriff had legal grounds to intervene, particularly if as alleged there were prior complaints.

If we are going to pass laws restricting firearms, which have subsequently withstood legal challenge, a reasonable first step might be to enforce them rather than the common practice of lamenting the lack of sufficient laws or regulations.

 

”The penalty provision for a violation of § 922(g) appears at 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), which provides that a person who "knowingly" violates § 922(g) "shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both." 

 

 With regard to the morality of his actions, yes murder is murder. On that I’d agree. 

[archer]

5 minutes ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Yeah, where I live we have only 6 deputies covering the County at a time and we are in the North Bay Area. They’re intentionally spread out but response time can vary. In the back regions it could be 30+ minutes, for sure.
 

As to a reason to intervene, I would respectfully disagree with the statement by the Sheriff regarding the relevance of immigration status specific to Mr Oropeza, as he was not lawfully able to acquire the firearm he was in possession of based on said undocumented immigration status. Unless I’m mistaken (which is possible) one needs to be a legal resident of the State to do so with a valid ID and a valid “alien number”. He appears to have been violating Federal Law simply through firearms ownership. Had that existing law (18 USC §922(g), it appears, which prohibits a person who “is illegally or unlawfully in the United States” from possessing “any firearm or ammunition”) been enforced, in this case it might have saved lives. The Sheriff had legal grounds to intervene, particularly if as alleged there were prior complaints.

If we are going to pass laws restricting firearms, which have subsequently withstood legal challenge, a reasonable first step might be to enforce them rather than the common practice of lamenting the lack of sufficient laws or regulations.

 

”The penalty provision for a violation of § 922(g) appears at 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), which provides that a person who "knowingly" violates § 922(g) "shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both." 

 

 With regard to the morality of his actions, yes murder is murder. On that I’d agree. 

 

From what I've read, local law enforcement officers are often reluctant to try to enforce a federal law.

[csyphrett]

he probably should have been reported to the ATF, but since that agency is under attack and having to deal with the Republicans trying to gut it like the IRS, I doubt they had the time or the attention span to pick one guy up. The next agency after the ATF that could be asked for help is Immigration, and I don't know if they would have in this case. Then the FBI might have been called, but they might have refused jurisdiction 

CES 

[unclevlad]

28 minutes ago, archer said:

 

From what I've read, local law enforcement officers are often reluctant to try to enforce a federal law.

 

There's likely a jurisdiction problem, for a federal crime.  That said, they could contact ATF, who does have jurisdiction.  But I agree that calling in the feds...ANY of them...doesn't seem likely to happen in Texas, for a gun violation.

 

But, what does Texas law say?  In a sane jurisdiction, this would violate state laws.  OK, we're talking Texas, so the gun laws aren't sane, but...

OK, research time.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons  -- 5th bullet:  illegal aliens.  So, yes, it's a violation of federal law.

 

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/firearm-prohibitions-in-texas/

So it doesn't appear to be a problem in Texas.  Yet they complain about illegal immigrants all the time.  Hey, how about closing a loophole that wouldn't impact your citizens in the slightest?  And how about helping enforce laws ON the books, even if they're federal???  

EDIT:  wait.  It's possible ATF would want local assistance...they may well not have the manpower to check each individual potential violation, their mandate tends to be on a larger scale, like the DEA's mandate isn't the street-corner dealer.  It's not hard to see how this would fall apart, with nothing being done.  

Oh, and another thought:  was the shooter run through the system?  Cuz you'd THINK his illegal status should pop up...and INS may well sweep him up more readily.  (Again, tho...possibly with local assistance that might be a problem here.)

 

What a freaking mess.

 

 

[Cygnia]

Ex-FBI agent who feds say urged Jan. 6 rioters to kill police worked terrorism task force

[csyphrett]

And naturally the office of his residency is New York. 

CES  

[csyphrett]

Usa Today is reporting that the wife of the mass shooter in Texas was arrested for harboring him.

CES

[wcw43921]

Illinois To End Book Banning

[Cygnia]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/jan-6-rioter-pink-beret-identified-ex-spotted-viral-fbi-tweet-rcna82286

[unclevlad]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/06/us/allen-texas-mall-shooter-reports/index.html

[Lord Liaden]

It's getting so this almost isn't news any more.

[unclevlad]

That's one of the 2 aspects that make me sick to my stomach on a personal level...the other being that I can't help but say that Texas does this to themselves.  Feeling that makes me NOT LIKE MYSELF...but I can't stop it, either.

 

I think I'm going to light a couple tea lights I still have from Yule...and pour myself a double.  Good night, everyone.  At least for us.

[death tribble]

This is the BBC reporting of the incident

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65515915

 

198 mass shooting this year so far. That is what is so unreal for me.

[Ranxerox]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

That's one of the 2 aspects that make me sick to my stomach on a personal level...the other being that I can't help but say that Texas does this to themselves.  Feeling that makes me NOT LIKE MYSELF...but I can't stop it, either.

 

I think I'm going to light a couple tea lights I still have from Yule...and pour myself a double.  Good night, everyone.  At least for us.

 

I can't heart or trophy this post, but I certainly know where you are coming from.

[Pattern Ghost]

5 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

I can't heart or trophy this post, but I certainly know where you are coming from.

 

I got you both.

[unclevlad]

I hesitate to post this a bit, because it's still preliminary, but what may have been the shooter's motive, from NBC News:

 

Spoiler

A preliminary review of what is believed to be the shooter’s social media accounts reveal hundreds of posts that include racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist rhetoric, including neo-Nazi material and material espousing white supremacy, two senior law enforcement officials said.

The officials stressed that the investigation is ongoing. The preliminary review found that the gunman’s social media posts were not liked or shared by other users.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Serious question, can anyone cite examples of left-wing lethal violence in America in recent years? I know American conservatives are always mouthing off about it, but to the best of my recollection, when these events have been politically motivated it always seems to be someone with the above background.

[Pattern Ghost]

A few I could dredge up (because of Google bias):

 

• The Tennessee shooting may qualify, but not all of the facts are in. I doubt the timing was coincidental, but to be fair, we don't know for sure if it was politically motivated.
• There was the 2017 shooting at the Congressional baseball game.
• There was the 2013 shooting at the Family Research Council headquarters, which was stopped by a security officer. The intent was to kill as many people there as possible.

I recall hearing about at least one other that wasn't one of these, some years ago. So, our extremists on both sides are capable of atrocities. However, recently, it seems like a larger portion of these events are motivated by people radicalized by right wing hate groups.

 

I found this paper by a professor at SUNY Oswego (PDF download link):

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib-tWG3uT-AhUIJjQIHbX_DEkQFnoECAoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fccjls.scholasticahq.com%2Farticle%2F26973-far-left-versus-far-right-fatal-violence-an-empirical-assessment-of-the-prevalence-of-ideologically-motivated-homicides-in-the-united-states%2Fattachment%2F67191.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1ake0xQ7qfSViQIB_ohTkM

 

The short version: Left wing ideologues also murder people, but typically right wing puts out bigger numbers. Except 2017 for some reason.

 

Found this fascinating (not in a particularly good way) data visualization from The Violence Project. It doesn't answer your question, but shows some other interesting things:

 

https://www.theviolenceproject.org/key-findings/

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Per that report, the far right puts out far higher numbers overall. The gap in number of incidents between left and right closed significantly during the Trump administration -- I can't say that surprises me -- but fatalities overall are much larger in both number and percentage from the far right, suggesting they've been either more efficient or more motivated in that regard.

[Old Man]

Just in case anyone was wondering about this particular shooter's ideological leanings:

 

(spoiled for right wing symbology)

 

Spoiler

 

[unclevlad]

The police are being pretty reticent about coming out with information on this guy.

 

I'm wondering if they're trying to trace connections to others, at this point, as they'll usually have made SOME statements by now.