What is the difference between the limitation 'gestures' and 'complex gestures'?

[Panpiper]

In Hero Designer when adding limitations to powers, when you select gestures the program allows us to select 'complex' with those gestures for an additional -1/4 limitation bonus. I have no idea what changes between complex gestures and regular gestures to make it worth more of a limitation. Does anyone have a clue?

 

It is not in the main rule books. Anyone know where this is defined?

[mallet]

Hero 6th Ed, vol.1 pg. 381.

 

Normal Gestures are done with one hand, Complex Gestures require both hands. 

[Panpiper]

2 minutes ago, mallet said:

Hero 6th Ed, vol.1 pg. 381.

 

Normal Gestures are done with one hand, Complex Gestures require both hands. 

 

Hero Designer allows us to take both complex gestures and requires both hands, both of which add an additional -1/4 limitation. If you take gestures and flag both complex gestures and requires both hands, it gives you a -3/4 limitation.

[Ternaugh]

I you waggle a few fingers and wave an arm, then it's a normal gesture. If you have to do the Hokey Pokey or equivalent, it's complex gestures.

[bluesguy]

Using guitar playing as an analogy:

 

Horse with no name is a very simple song to learn how to play.  It is two chords that are in the same position on the neck and are easy to switch between.  The strumming pattern isn't hard to learn.  I think it took me about a day or so to learn it.  See this Youtube lesson I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OCGN6AspY

 

And then you have Flamenco guitar playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv2Fyjk0GGM which takes years of constant practice to learn how to do.

 

[IndianaJoe3]

"Complex Gestures" are in Fantasy Hero pg 285. It's a skill roll penalty, or forces a DEX roll if the spell does not require a skill roll.

[Panpiper]

26 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

"Complex Gestures" are in Fantasy Hero pg 285. It's a skill roll penalty, or forces a DEX roll if the spell does not require a skill roll.

 

Bingo!  Thank you. 'That' is what would make it worth the extra limitation.

 

[pawsplay]

If you have to do the Hokey Pokey, that's arguably Restrainable as well.

[massey]

40 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

If you have to do the Hokey Pokey, that's arguably Restrainable as well.

 

Limitation: Looks like a dork while using it (-1/4 to -1/2, depending on how mean your fellow PCs are).

[Tjack]

The “OK” gesture—-Simple Gesture

American Sign Language for “beautiful day”——Complex Gesture

[Greywind]

Simple: flipping the bird.
Complex: playing Cat's Cradle.

[pawsplay]

Simple: "Victory" sign while gazing at your target.

Complex: ASL interpretation for The Realm Slim Shady while twirling your Focus (burning censer)

[Hugh Neilson]

Why are most of you listing special effects rather than mechanics?  This is Hero - the fact that you are playing Stairway to Heaven with a full band rather than Chopsticks on a cheap keyboard is just special effects.  What does it do in gameplay?

 

Thanks to IndianaJoe3 for providing the mechanics.

[Tech]

On 5/26/2020 at 12:00 PM, massey said:

 

Limitation: Looks like a dork while using it (-1/4 to -1/2, depending on how mean your fellow PCs are).

 

Ok, I find this to be hilarious!

[megaplayboy]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:49 AM, bluesguy said:

Using guitar playing as an analogy:

 

Horse with no name is a very simple song to learn how to play.  It is two chords that are in the same position on the neck and are easy to switch between.  The strumming pattern isn't hard to learn.  I think it took me about a day or so to learn it.  See this Youtube lesson I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OCGN6AspY

 

And then you have Flamenco guitar playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv2Fyjk0GGM which takes years of constant practice to learn how to do.

 

Or a simple 12 bar slow blues vs, well, this:

https://www.veojam.com/watch/1284771777

 

 

[bluesguy]

13 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

Or a simple 12 bar slow blues vs, well, this:

https://www.veojam.com/watch/1284771777

 

 

Good comparison.  I can play simple 12 bar blues songs ;-)...

[Duke Bushido]

On May 27, 2020 at 8:11 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Why are most of you listing special effects rather than mechanics?  This is Hero - the fact that you are playing Stairway to Heaven with a full band rather than Chopsticks on a cheap keyboard is just special effects.  What does it do in gameplay?

 

 

To be fair to Hugh, I had the exact same question as I read through this thread.

 

I didn't pipe up on it, though, because 1) I have stated before that I am taking less of an interest to the board and am becoming less active and 2) I eventually realized that neither the title nor the question in the first post specified a request for more than "the differences;" it didn't ask mechanical or SFX.  Like Hugh, I had _assumed_ mechanical, since values were mentioned, but without specification, I realized I could be wrong about intent, so..

 

 

 

However, I noticed something that can be derived from these three comments:

 

 

On May 25, 2020 at 3:24 PM, Ternaugh said:

I you waggle a few fingers and wave an arm, then it's a normal gesture. If you have to do the Hokey Pokey or equivalent, it's complex gestures.

 

On May 26, 2020 at 12:15 PM, pawsplay said:

If you have to do the Hokey Pokey, that's arguably Restrainable as well.

 

On May 26, 2020 at 1:00 PM, massey said:

 

Limitation: Looks like a dork while using it (-1/4 to -1/2, depending on how mean your fellow PCs are).

 

 

There's liable to be some confusion, as I'm going to try to keep this short.  My apologies in advance:

 

All of those can be applied to the exact same special effect defined as "complex gestures."   Every one of them.

 

You have to do the Hokey Pokey; that's the SFX.   It's a dance, and you can be restrained from doing it.  That is restrainable.

 

interestingly, "Looks like a Dork while doing it"-- that's valid.  I mean, you _are_ doing the Hokey Pokey.

 

"Looks like a Dork," however, is not by default Restrainable.

 

Thus, it's quite possible that your spell requires the caster to dance the Hokey Pokey.  Two casters have this spell.  One of them has "Complex Gestures: Restrainable"   and the other has "Looks like a Dork while casting."

 

Special-effects-wise, Caster A can be tackled and prevented from casting this spell.

 

Caster B, as he has not chosen Restrainable, cannot be stopped.  

 

 

Yeah, it's a bit of a "goes nowhere" observation, but it's such a strong demonstration of the core principles of this game: separation of mechanics and effects.  It's an illustration of why I get so irritated when I see conversations including things like "well if that's your power, then you _must_ take this limitation or this advantage because your SFX.... etc, etc."  Even if you can't stop believing that, make an effort to stop spreading it.  New players might stumble across it, and it's not going to help.    Certainly suggested considerations like "well, you could model it this way, which allows a cost-reduction for the weakness or lack of ability that you have already decided you want---"  Let's say Fire Blast is reduced 50% when underwater is something that the player has already stated he thought would be interesting.   These sorts of suggestions are not only creative, they are useful and helpful both as teaching tools to help someone get their head around an idea and to demonstrate that the system is flexible.  You know: give them some examples and practice thinking about how their conception could be beneficial or tweaked a bit.

 

Telling them it _must_ be something:  Oh, you have have to do a little dance.  You have to call that Gestures or you have to call it restrainable or whatever--  that's not only confusing (and thus unhelpful), it's in complete defiance of the single most core principle of the game.  Ultimately, it's between the GM of one group and the players in that group to decide what does and doesn't fly, and while they may go outside that group for help or ideas, they certainly don't need us screwing up their games for them or telling them they are wrong, particularly when they likely aren't.

 

[CaptainCoulson]

The difference between Gestures and Complex Gestures is just that a part of the Special Effects of the power becomes more complex, and therefore potentially more likely to fail or be stopped, and less likely to be replicable. For you to cast a spell that takes Complex Gestures, for instance, might mean that you have to be able to move your fingers in certain positions which you couldn't achieve if, for example, you were in a car accident that damaged the nerves in your hands. On the other hand, simple Gestures might allow you to do the same spell without even having that hand, because you just need to point your wrist in the right direction, since you have the special effects saying that your will to make magic happen is focussed enough that missing a hand is not an impediment. In this instance, "Gestures" is something like pointing roughly in the direction you want the spell to go, while "Complex Gestures" is a precise way of holding your fingers, while pointing exactly at the target.

 

Basically, if you want more of a limitation from the Gestures limitation, you take it as a Complex Limitation to let the GM know that this is your power's weakpoint, more so than ever.

[dsatow]

This is just how I adjudicate complex gestures vs regular gestures.  Other GMs may adjudicate otherwise.

 

If you have no issues doing something else with your hands, it's not worth the limitation gestures.  

If you can do something else with your hands but it might ruin what you are doing unless you succeed on a Dex roll, its normal gestures.

If you can't do something else with your hands, its complex gestures.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

11 hours ago, PsiJudge McCabe said:

The difference between Gestures and Complex Gestures is just that a part of the Special Effects of the power becomes more complex, and therefore potentially more likely to fail or be stopped, and less likely to be replicable. For you to cast a spell that takes Complex Gestures, for instance, might mean that you have to be able to move your fingers in certain positions which you couldn't achieve if, for example, you were in a car accident that damaged the nerves in your hands. On the other hand, simple Gestures might allow you to do the same spell without even having that hand, because you just need to point your wrist in the right direction, since you have the special effects saying that your will to make magic happen is focussed enough that missing a hand is not an impediment. In this instance, "Gestures" is something like pointing roughly in the direction you want the spell to go, while "Complex Gestures" is a precise way of holding your fingers, while pointing exactly at the target.

 

Basically, if you want more of a limitation from the Gestures limitation, you take it as a Complex Limitation to let the GM know that this is your power's weakpoint, more so than ever.

5 minutes ago, dsatow said:

This is just how I adjudicate complex gestures vs regular gestures.  Other GMs may adjudicate otherwise.

 

If you have no issues doing something else with your hands, it's not worth the limitation gestures.  

If you can do something else with your hands but it might ruin what you are doing unless you succeed on a Dex roll, its normal gestures.

If you can't do something else with your hands, its complex gestures.

 

On 5/26/2020 at 8:07 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

"Complex Gestures" are in Fantasy Hero pg 285. It's a skill roll penalty, or forces a DEX roll if the spell does not require a skill roll.

On 5/27/2020 at 5:11 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Why are most of you listing special effects rather than mechanics?  This is Hero - the fact that you are playing Stairway to Heaven with a full band rather than Chopsticks on a cheap keyboard is just special effects.  What does it do in gameplay?

 

Thanks to IndianaJoe3 for providing the mechanics.