Reboot the CU Uuniverse, WWYD?

[Jhamin]

On 7/20/2020 at 11:38 PM, Mr. R said:

As far as the good Doctor, make him closer to his namesake (Doom).  Doom is tough, but there is no way he could take on multiple hero teams.  Make Doc D. similar in that regard.

 

I've found that since around 5th edition or so, Doctor Destroyer works better as a Thanos or Darkseid analogue than as a Doctor Doom analogue.  In which case I'd probably move him full time to his hidden nation of worshipers and I'd shift his minions to be less about the mental conditioning and more about the unbridled worship of a superior, visionary master.

[Jhamin]

If I had it to do over, I'd rationalize the point totals on a lot of villains.  The Mega Threats like Destroyer, Mechanon, Menton, The Warlord, etc are *way* to high to actually use in a normal game.  Not every villain should be within reach of starting characters but the Destroyer is potentially straight up Killing most PCs built to standard recommended stats in like 2 hits with those 30D6 Destroyer-Beams while their 10-12 DC attacks are doing less than 5 stun to him. 

I keep seeing people on the forums mention that they never use most of the iconic villains because they either need to be brought way down or they will just no-sell anything the heroes throw at them.  There needs to be a lot more of a range.

I'd love to see a lot more solo villains that are a match for a single hero instead of being designed to take on a team.  Sometimes a PC needs an antagonist more than the team needs one.

 

I agree with the others who would like to move the timeline up a bit.  Either move origins up so they started their villainy in 2017 or so or start passing the torch to a new generation.  At this point all origins that relate to WWII or Vietnam need to also include longevity as part of the power suite.  Someone who fought in WWII as a young adult is like 80 years old now.  Someone who got their powers in 1989 at the age of 22 is now 53 years old, which is ancient in the world of most supers comics.

 

Also: It's 2020, Red Winter has perhaps aged out as a concept.  They belong in a time travel adventure or need to be portrayed as crazy out of touch.  The Red & Gold Hammer & Sickle evil communists don't really work as a straight concept anymore.  Even their "trying to revive the Soviet Union" thing doesn't work when it's been gone for 25+ years.  Now that I think of it, Time-Travelling Communists who want to steal the tech of today to prop up the failing Soviet Union of 1987 actually sounds like a lot of fun......

 

[pbemguy]

I like the CU. I played in it A LOT. 

 

I'd keep EVERYTHING. I'd keep the history the same. I'd incorporate old storylines that have been overwritten by newer incarnations, and try to unify them all into a coherent timeline. For example, The Guardians existed in the Eighties. VIPER went through all of its incarnations, and now is something that is a bit of all of them. Doctor Destroyer and Professor Muerte did their thing in the Eighties....now it's a new incarnation, perhaps the female clone that was talked about earlier, but maybe Dr. D's brain patterns still exist to advise his clone...something like that.

 

IT ALL COUNTS.

 

The superteam, Champions, that has Seeker in it, they existed, but in the Nineties/early 2000's. Etc. They now have mostly a new roster.

 

But the emphasis would be on CONTINUITY, not on RE-IMAGINING. My whole philosophy would not be to pick and choose what happened and what didn't, it would be, "How can I work this so all of this happened and it all fits together?"

 

My personal peccadillo would be to change one thing: all of it happens in real cities, not in fictional cities. That being said, I don't mind the idea that Detroit was renamed Millennium City...I could be persuaded.

 

PS: If we couldn't get the rights to a certain character, we'd ask if he could at least be mentioned for posterity. Whose heart is so cold as to deny us that?
 

[Dr. MID-Nite]

On 7/25/2020 at 7:16 PM, Lord Liaden said:

 

I used the Serpent Queen, from Blackwyrm Games' The Algernon Files, as a template for Nama. She's literally Apophis, Echidna, and Tiamat. Her snake-form, and human form (with snake Multiform), each came to 2400 CP under 5E Hero.

 

I'm doing something like this, but tying it even more into Egyptian Mythology. Eclispsar is a powerful servant of Apep in that scenario.

[Tjack]

2 hours ago, Jhamin said:

 

I've found that since around 5th edition or so, Doctor Destroyer works better as a Thanos or Darkseid analogue than as a Doctor Doom analogue.  In which case I'd probably move him full time to his hidden nation of worshipers and I'd shift his minions to be less about the mental conditioning and more about the unbridled worship of a superior, visionary master.

        I’ve always thought of Dr. Destroyer as an amalgam.  He may look and have a write-up like Dr.Doom but he acts and thinks like Ra’s al Ghul.

[pbemguy]

33 minutes ago, Tjack said:

        I’ve always thought of Dr. Destroyer as an amalgam.  He may look and have a write-up like Dr.Doom but he acts and thinks like Ra’s al Ghul.

 

Yes. And a lot of Champions villains are like that, I think. And it's how I do my homebrew villains. "Gee, it would be cool if a villain had Lex Luthor's personality but Professor X's powers..." 

 

(Wait, did I do that because they're both bald? LOL)

 

[pbemguy]

On 7/20/2020 at 5:57 PM, specks said:

-Change Dr. Destroyer. A previous thread mentioned making him a female but I would drop the Nazi WWII story and make him/her a time traveling villain from the future who came to conquer the past. Destroyer is big enough in points and resources to already represent a major threat so why not a temporal threat as well.

 

 

 

On 7/24/2020 at 7:02 PM, Matt the Bruins said:

 

I've also leaned toward gender-flipping Firewing, as nothing about his origin or modus operandi strikes me as needing him to be male. Having a female top-tier powerhouse supervillain who's honorable, a bit noble, deadly, and NOT built around the concept of being a seductress or some powerful guy's manipulative girlfriend pulling his strings has a lot of appeal to me. 

 

 

I like these ideas. I think the Dr. D idea is grand, but I think the execution would have to be handled carefully. I'd want to see this female Dr. D have a somewhat normal female upbringing, in a private school perhaps, and not know that she's a female clone until adulthood. She'd have to live a woman's life is what I mean. If she always knew she was a female clone of a man, it just wouldn't feel as authentic.

 

The Firewing idea is super as well. I'd be tempted to keep Firewing and have this another Malvan (is that the right word?). Maybe have Firewing die and she is sent to the quadrant in his place. I can't remember the origin details for some reason--I think I'm just going from my memory of his ancient Enemies entry.

[archer]

I don't really see a reason to update Dr. Destroyer's origin story. Any self-respecting mad scientist with decades to work and virtually unlimited funding is eventually going to work on multiple plans to ensure his own immortality.

 

Cloning, anti-aging serums, cold sleep rather than regular sleep, brain transfers to unwilling new hosts or robot bodies, near lightspeed travel, healing machinery, travel to other dimensions where time moves "in reverse", etc.

[Lord Liaden]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:08 PM, DoctorHammersmith said:

I would probably throw in a few more Cosmic Heroes and Villains. Expand the outer space superheroics and the interdimensional scientists or interplanar wizards stuff, so as to have the chance to add a whole bunch of weird new stuff (including lots of alternate variants of the same things) without actually getting rid of anything. Classic Doctor Destroyer is in Earth Y, but female Nazi general Doctor Destroyer comes from Blue Earth, and Doctor Destroyer of Earth Gamma-9 is a superhero from the Andromeda Galaxy.

 

Champions Beyond provides a ton of alien races, cosmic entities, fabulous technology and artifacts, and super-powered or tech-armed characters, but there's plenty of room for expansions. The book names and briefly describes sixteen supervillainous enemies of the Star*Guard, either currently loose or in their Star*Prison, plus another dozen supers hailing from the Andromeda Galaxy. There are also a number of potential origins for new villains or heroes scattered through it.

 

For my own games I imported a number of the characters and astro-political entities from the future-based Galactic Champions setting book. Some require almost no changes to the present-day CU. One could easily substitute the messianic Firewing from GC for the glory-hound gladiator we have today, or use both. With only the smallest of background/motivation tweaks the Sovereign would fit our era as well as the future. I also planned to use Mechanon 3000 by making it "X'endron Prime," the founder and leader of the all-robot civilization, the X'endron Network. Even the future Champions could be utilized by substituting any of the numerous humanoid races in the Milky Way for 31st Century humans.

 

Book Of The Empress expanded on the official setting element of a multitude of alternate Earths and other dimensions by providing quite a few examples. That includes alternate versions of Doctor Destroyer: "Professor Preserver" is one of the greatest heroes of "Left-Handed Earth," the CU's official Backworld, while Shadow Destroyer who hails from "Multifarian Earth" is in many ways that world's analogue to DD, except that he isn't Albert Zerstoiten and he uses both tech and magic. BOTE also utilizes all the villains from Champions Villains Two and Three as members of Istvatha V'han's Imperial Battalion, by changing their names and modifying a few background details.

[Lord Liaden]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:39 PM, Mark Rand said:

Something evil and mystical, like either the Dark Kingdom or the Death Busters from the Sailor Moon franchise replaces DEMON.

 

There are a number of existing options in the setting. Among those already well documented, the Circle of the Scarlet Moon provides a low-profile, subtly pervasive occult conspiracy, while the Cult of the Red Banner offers a malevolent Oriental/martial-art focused mystic opponent. Dean Shomshak outlined several other cults to the Dragon on Champions Earth: the Bone Children, Ouroboros, the Sons of Kingu, Vritrasangha. Ouroboros would be particularly easy to adapt, because Dean wrote up its organization and some of its members in the 4E book, The Ultimate Super Mage; while Digital Hero #4 created a whole team of super-class operatives for Ouroboros, "the Chosen of Abraxas."

 

Shadow Destroyer's organization is in no small part a cult to Lovecraftian entities from the Qliphoth, and that element could be played up further, focusing on his human acolytes. They could even carry on after SD is defeated ( a logical advancement of the world).

[pawsplay]

Given how few (none?) transgender characters are presented, I think it might be cool to say a few of the characters are living their authentic gender, and further, have one or two characters change their gender presentation from when they first appeared.

[Lord Liaden]

I get the desire for representation, but I'm not sure we need to make a point of transgendered characters for a setting like this. I remember Steve Long being asked about gay/lesbian characters in Champions in a chat years ago, and he stated something along the lines of, he didn't feel he needed to underscore a character's sexuality, because that rarely has anything to do with their motivation or conduct as a hero or villain. He wrote that if a character's gender identity isn't specified, we should feel free to make it whatever our own game group wants.

[Beast]

On 7/20/2020 at 3:57 PM, specks said:

If we were to reboot Champions Universe what changes would you like to see. My choices:
-Change Dr. Destroyer. A previous thread mentioned making him a female but I would drop the Nazi WWII story and make him/her a time traveling villain from the future who came to conquer the past. Destroyer is big enough in points and resources to already represent a major threat so why not a temporal threat as well.
-Bring back Seeker. I think he needs a greater number of martial art skills and weapons. Maybe give him a beard give him more character.
-I think it is time to have Leech cured. He did not ask to be what he was so I think maybe some mystical hero might change him back. Have him back to drive a cab again
-Drop Millennium City as the default setting. I think it would be nice to not be pigeon-holed in one city. Many individual villains (and organizations) have a global reach so why not pick and choose different cities for villains instead of one.

 

I have some more but I think that these are good starting points.

 

Leave him as a nazi, nazis are universal villains
there is already an empress that spans dimensions( adding time travel is trival)
Seeker needs more def to take a hit

Curing Leech is a plot hook for a GM to set
there are 4 cities for champions(Millennium city,Hudson, Vibora Bay and San Angelo(needs up dating) to choose from or build on your self our use all of them and add more as needed

[steriaca]

40 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Given how few (none?) transgender characters are presented, I think it might be cool to say a few of the characters are living their authentic gender, and further, have one or two characters change their gender presentation from when they first appeared.

I kinda like Tenderheart and see her as a sort of Catwoman type person. Sure, her targets are things related to romance and whatever superhero she is crushing on at the time.

 

In case you need a refresher, Tenderheart is the transgender Dark Champions fencer villain.

 

I see Princess as pansexual myself. Whoever can protect her from whatever giant ape and supervillains and their henchmen and the constant tying her to train tracks she'll take (along with all the attention it brings). And scorn her, and all the superheroes secrets are scattered to the four winds.

[pawsplay]

I'm not very familiar with the Dark Champions canon.

[Mark Rand]

I like the version of Foxbat in Champions: New Millennium.  He's the nephew of the original and had his uncle's brain patterns imprinted into his brain. 

 

Instead of the Centipedemobile, he has the Foxbatmobile (a sports car) and a van.  Like his uncle, he worships the Blessed Saint Bob (Bob Denver).

 

Of course, by now he might be Freddy Foswell's son instead of nephew.

[steriaca]

34 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

I'm not very familiar with the Dark Champions canon.

Technically in 4th edition it was part of the Champions Universe and not part of the Champions Universe at the same time. Originally the author wanted Dark Champions as a sort of Action Movie Hero, but was nudged into making it about shade of grey costumed non-powered vigilantes. 

 

I consider the costume vigilantes and costumed villains of Dark Champions as a little corner of the Champions Universe. They exist all there in Hudson City (which needs a 6ed update). And this, everyone is usable in both areas.

[Lord Liaden]

56 minutes ago, Beast said:

Leave him as a nazi, nazis are universal villains
there is already an empress that spans dimensions( adding time travel is trival)
Seeker needs more def to take a hit

Curing Leech is a plot hook for a GM to set
there are 4 cities for champions(Millennium city,Hudson, Vibora Bay and San Angelo(needs up dating) to choose from or build on your self our use all of them and add more as needed

 

Albert Zerstoiten was never a Nazi, in either his 4E or 5/6E incarnations. He mouthed their slogans to continue to use their scientific resources, but he considered Hitler and his cronies to be of low intelligence, and their doctrine of racial superiority to have no basis in science.

 

The latest Golden Age Champions fully writes up a character only alluded to in previous books, Korrex the Conqueror (also called "Korrex the Time King"), a pretty explicit Kang analogue. He's a warlord from an alternate future Earth who conquers past eras, causing the creation of new alternate timelines. Setting one of his minions to govern the new alternate Earth, he moves on to another era.

 

The version of Seeker from Champions: New Millennium was a product of genetic engineering, and was thus more than humanly strong and tough, in addition to being a highly trained fighter. If I used any version of Seeker, this one would be less improbable than the original.

 

In my campaign I decided Leech was a servant of the Coin Collector, from DEMON: Servants Of Darkness. (The coin used to entrance him was an obvious tie-in.) CC used a ritual to spread the Qliphothic taint in his own body to others, warping his victim into a monster obedient to his will. My version of CC had a dozen of these "Leeches," blasphemously named after the Twelve Apostles, which he kept in various bodies of water around the world until needed as his assassins or enforcers.

[Beast]

53 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Albert Zerstoiten was never a Nazi, in either his 4E or 5/6E incarnations. He mouthed their slogans to continue to use their scientific resources, but he considered Hitler and his cronies to be of low intelligence, and their doctrine of racial superiority to have no basis in science.

 

The latest Golden Age Champions fully writes up a character only alluded to in previous books, Korrex the Conqueror (also called "Korrex the Time King"), a pretty explicit Kang analogue. He's a warlord from an alternate future Earth who conquers past eras, causing the creation of new alternate timelines. Setting one of his minions to govern the new alternate Earth, he moves on to another era.

 

The version of Seeker from Champions: New Millennium was a product of genetic engineering, and was thus more than humanly strong and tough, in addition to being a highly trained fighter. If I used any version of Seeker, this one would be less improbable than the original.

 

In my campaign I decided Leech was a servant of the Coin Collector, from DEMON: Servants Of Darkness. (The coin used to entrance him was an obvious tie-in.) CC used a ritual to spread the Qliphothic taint in his own body to others, warping his victim into a monster obedient to his will. My version of CC had a dozen of these "Leeches," blasphemously named after the Twelve Apostles, which he kept in various bodies of water around the world until needed as his assassins or enforcers.

He uses nazi tech and spouts their propaganda makes him a nazi in the eyes of the public
Having his own agenda is nothing new
Goring tried to take over the nazi government in april of 45 when he thought Hitler had a nervous breakdown

As for Seeker, I'm staying with the Hero system champions
Fusion is a different game for me

 

[ScottishFox]

On 7/25/2020 at 6:16 PM, Lord Liaden said:

each came to 2400 CP under 5E Hero.

 

Erm...  That seems impossibly high.  Unless she's built to intentionally waste points is she throwing around 50d6 AoEs?

 

PS - Is there a free way to see the writeup?

[Matt the Bruins]

If she's literally the goddess that represents primordial horrors for three different ancient pagan pantheons (including two of the ones most familiar to and influential on modern western civilization), I'd say a point total in excess of Tezcatlipoca's is called for.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

He uses nazi tech and spouts their propaganda makes him a nazi in the eyes of the public
Having his own agenda is nothing new
Goring tried to take over the nazi government in april of 45 when he thought Hitler had a nervous breakdown

As for Seeker, I'm staying with the Hero system champions
Fusion is a different game for me

 

 

The only time Destroyer cares one jot what's in the eyes of the public, aka "the mindless sheep," is if one of them dares to publicly criticize him. Said critic usually winds up dead shortly after, if they're lucky enough to have only annoyed him. If DD is actually offended or angered, their fate is much worse. (The Doctor is epically vindictive.)

 

As for New Millennium Seeker, maybe you'd be interested in 4E Hero System stats for him. And all the other characters from that book line.

 

 

[Beast]

18 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

The only time Destroyer cares one jot what's in the eyes of the public, aka "the mindless sheep," is if one of them dares to publicly criticize him. Said critic usually winds up dead shortly after, if they're lucky enough to have only annoyed him. If DD is actually offended or angered, their fate is much worse. (The Doctor is epically vindictive.)

 

As for New Millennium Seeker, maybe you'd be interested in 4E Hero System stats for him. And all the other characters from that book line.

 

 

And you made my point about DD as he is a killer from the nazi era and heroes wanting to draw him out would promote this
if your going to promote him as a villain starting with a nazi connection is a great place to start

I have all that stuff
I you look on the playtest page I'm there Robert Isenberg
My friend Ron Glass had his version before 4th ed called Shadow Wolf
30 body and maybe 3 resistant def he never learned my character Precision's mantra

"Best defense,  No be there"
Precision had 10 resistant and 50% damage reduction if he did get hit

[Lord Liaden]

On 7/27/2020 at 6:24 PM, Beast said:

And you made my point about DD as he is a killer from the nazi era and heroes wanting to draw him out would promote this
if your going to promote him as a villain starting with a nazi connection is a great place to start

 

 

*Shrug* a bit cliche for my taste. I find Doctor Destroyer enough of a monster as is that a Nazi connection seems superfluous,  and for me his holding Nazism in contempt is rather refreshing. But sure, whatever works for you.

[archer]

If DD hasn't spouted "I'm a Nazi" for the last 75 years or openly supported their ideology but has played up the "I'm an unabashed supervillain" angle consistently, I'm willing to play him off in the public's view as an unabashed supervillain (who the geeks know has roots in Nazi Germany but most everyone else is only vaguely aware, if that).