Enforcer84 Posted June 30, 2007 Report Share Posted June 30, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) Sounds like you could do a bunch of weak villains vs solo hero scenarios. Hey! It's almost every other major spiderman story arc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) You're assuming that just because I play M&M that I have no interest in the CU as an entity unto itself. I see the CU as a living breathing world in much the same way I see Marvel or DC A living breathing world SHOULD have knobs and jobbers, characters who are little more than agents in individual costumes as well as characters who can devastate cities with a missed shot. Spider-Man doesn't just fight the Green Goblin and the Rhino, he also fights the Kangaroo and the Disco Hustler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzalot Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) IMO the purpose of official books shouldn't be to cater to those who choose to use the material in a non-standard way. If someone wants to play a 250 point CU game that is fine but the books shouldn't be written for those people. The books should be written for the CU standard and is someone wants to play lower or higher point games they should do the legwork themselves. It's far easier for the 10% of buyers who play at 250 points to make characters weaker then it is for the 90% who don't to be forced to make the adjustments' date=' IMO.[/quote'] What is "non-standard" about a low powered game? Entire sourcebooks have been written for lower powered games. Teen Champions and Dark Champions immediately spring to mind. What's wrong with including some villains that cater to this power level? Did someone make it a rule that anything that differs from the 350 suggested power level is "non-standard"? Speaking only for myself, including some lower powered villains in VV&V is a selling point, not a negative. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) What is "non-standard" about a low powered game? Entire sourcebooks have been written for lower powered games. Teen Champions and Dark Champions immediately spring to mind. What's wrong with including some villains that cater to this power level? Did someone make it a rule that anything that differs from the 350 suggested power level is "non-standard"? Speaking only for myself, including some lower powered villains in VV&V is a selling point, not a negative. YMMV I agree 100%. Even if a villain character is too puny to go up against the hero individually as built, there's no reason he can't team up with other low-powered villains or suffer a radiation accident to compensate. Even many 350 point games are essentially "street level+" anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) One of the best villain teams I ever created started out as too-low-powered one-shot wonders. The heroes ran against them individually, beat them handily... and then the Ravager got ahold of the loser villains and upped their power levels to make them a challenge to the heroes. The next time they fought, the heroes were quite shocked. They became a team the players looked forward to facing. Caveat: I don't own VVV and haven't seen it yet. So this is pretty general. Another use for otherwise wimpy villains is to take advantage of a hero's Vulnerabilities or Susceptabilities. If PC #1 can beat Buzzsaw with both hands behind his back, but PC #2 gets trounced by him, you've set up a good emnity. Also, I don't know if anyone else throws news items into their game, but I've used otherwise-unusable characters in news items to flesh out the world. So they're not *completely* useless, if used in interesting ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plex Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I'm going to have to get this book now after reading all these posts just to see what everyone is talking about up close and personal. I figure at the very least I'll have a whole book dedicated to a Rogues gallery for each of my players, if they really are underpowered. That would be just way too cool... Art to me doesn't really matter all that much, especially when you look back at the really early books. (1st ed) If I based my buying off that I might not have ever started playing Champions. (I miss the picture of the guy holding his head on all fours after being punched in the face... I always looked at that and winced, thinking wow that had to really hurt.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) There is some stuff in this book that I can use, the problem is that some of the stuff I can use just plain doesn't work in my gameworld. So that means it's basically a sheet. I can write a new background and use the sheet, which is fine, it just means that when I write the background, it should feel good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I just got my copy today. I don't see anything in the Writer's Guidelines, but based on this book and other recent character sourcebooks I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the current character design policy is to not give unusual-looking characters Distinctive Features, instead leaving it to the GM to decide if the character is unusual looking in their specific campaign and add an appropriate Distinctive Features Disadvantage. Leaving out characters who can assume a normal human form... Overbrain: Disembodied flying glowing brain. Ape-Plus: Gun-toting mutant gorilla. Lynx: Cat-girl. Mr. Zombie: Rotting corpse. The Curse: Withered mummy. Grotesque: Flesh melted off his body. Leviathan: Micro-Godzilla. Plague: Covered with lesions and sores. Python: Green-scaled snake man. Rictus: Permanent death-like grin. Syzygy: Robed robot with a featureless spherical head. Terrayne: Giant rock monster. Not a single Distinctive Features among them, except the occasional "Mutant" or "Magical Aura". Terrayne is Distinctive because of his elemental magic aura, but not because he's a 2-ton walking rock pile? I've seen it in other books for a while (Halfjack, anyone?), but it seemed particularly noticeable here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) the current character design policy is to not give unusual-looking characters Distinctive Features As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character, and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAlpha Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character' date=' and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO.[/quote'] Hmm I never thought about it in those terms, but that's an awesome policy. Time to go back adjust a few characters to reflect this. Rep time!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzalot Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character' date=' and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO.[/quote'] I can see the logic in that but I have to disagree. A "normal" looking character can do things that a 9' humanoid rock pile can't, such as blend into a crowd and generally be inconspicuous if the situation calls for it. Of course, as line developer I like that you are keeping a consistent policy, but in my campaigns Distinctive Features are in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I can see the logic in that but I have to disagree. A "normal" looking character can do things that a 9' humanoid rock pile can't' date=' such as blend into a crowd and generally be inconspicuous if the situation calls for it. Of course, as line developer I like that you are keeping a consistent policy, but in my campaigns Distinctive Features are in.[/quote'] Yeah, unless supers are very common, I think DF has a place and some of them are going to be very disadvantage in role play and any attempts are social interaction. A character with a horrid appearance is going to find it more difficult to interact with "normal" people much of the time. DFs can also drive plots (its much easier to set the character up, hard to claim mistaken ID unless there are allot of walking rock piles or you could be mistaken for someone or something else) and present other minor physical limitations in day to day to life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) Distinctive features still has its uses if like me you have characters who are Giant Snails wearing bowler hats who live in metal shells with a howitzer on top; A giant clothes wearing gun toting Polar Bear; A giant Purple Worm wearing a suitable sized trenchcoat and hat; A dwarf sized Dr Destroyer; A humanoid dragon; a brown furred, cloven footed, horned man; An Angel complete with wings, armour and burning halo; a red skinned, horned, winged female; a man who is half tank and half man; a winged dinosaur in gangster get back; a Beholder with armament to put an Apache helicoptor to shame a green skinned, hoofed footed, horned hammer wielding woman; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I'd love to hear some of the background behind THOSE characters. As for the debate, I usually allow distinctive features if it makes the character stand out noticibly in a major way. If you Detect as a mutant and most of humanity doesn't, that warrants a feature. Simply being ugly does not...because many MANY people are ugly..or have scars and what not. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) The only real problem I have with this concept is consistent application. Past books seem hit-or-miss, although more the older ones than the newer ones. Grabbing a handful of books, again ignoring characters that can turn human... Conquerors, Killer and Crooks Distinctive Features Istvatha V'han and minions Fiacho Durak Ultrasonique Binder Blackstar Grond Leech The Monster Shadowdragon Slug No Distinctive Features Takofanes and Demon Servitor Crowns of Krim Feuermacher Herculan Hornet Morningstar Nebula Ogre Vibron Shirak Lemurian Golem Arcane Adversaries Distinctive Features Kapilasa (relevant for possession) Vulshoth Angler Mind Thief Spawn of Vulshoth Squrm Tobias Vandaleur No Distinctive Features Golem Vilsimbra (illusion powers) Hand of Deizzhorath Bocal McFarlane Viper: Coils of the Serpent Distinctive Features VIPER Agents Oculon Ripper No Distinctive Features Boa Constrictor Diamondback Halfjack Demon: Servants of Darkness Distinctive Features Luther Black Herr Doktor Pandemonium DEMON Brother DEMON Initiate Devil Dog No Distinctive Features Black Shepherd Left Hand Champions Universe: News of the World Distinctive Features Slug No Distinctive Features Ironclad Duke Steel Diamond Hornet Bloodrage Pantera Valak Champions Worldwide Distinctive Features Obelisque Turs al-Sh'ab Joseph Otanga Katar No Distinctive Features Acantilado Eretsun A'asifa Rumlia Living Sphinx Survalesh Atoll Eclipsar El Tiburon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJackBrass Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) A giant clothes wearing gun toting Polar Bear You need to be playing Star Ace. There's a whole race of those! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) The only real problem I have with this concept is consistent application. Past books seem hit-or-miss, although more the older ones than the newer ones. Grabbing a handful of books, again ignoring characters that can turn human... Conquerors, Killer and Crooks Distinctive Features Istvatha V'han and minions Fiacho Durak Ultrasonique Binder Blackstar Grond Leech The Monster Shadowdragon Slug No Distinctive Features Takofanes and Demon Servitor Crowns of Krim Feuermacher Herculan Hornet Morningstar Nebula Ogre Vibron Shirak Lemurian Golem Arcane Adversaries Distinctive Features Kapilasa (relevant for possession) Vulshoth Angler Mind Thief Spawn of Vulshoth Squrm Tobias Vandaleur No Distinctive Features Golem Vilsimbra (illusion powers) Hand of Deizzhorath Bocal McFarlane Viper: Coils of the Serpent Distinctive Features VIPER Agents Oculon Ripper No Distinctive Features Boa Constrictor Diamondback Halfjack Demon: Servants of Darkness Distinctive Features Luther Black Herr Doktor Pandemonium DEMON Brother DEMON Initiate Devil Dog No Distinctive Features Black Shepherd Left Hand Champions Universe: News of the World Distinctive Features Slug No Distinctive Features Ironclad Duke Steel Diamond Hornet Bloodrage Pantera Valak Champions Worldwide Distinctive Features Obelisque Turs al-Sh'ab Joseph Otanga Katar No Distinctive Features Acantilado Eretsun A'asifa Rumlia Living Sphinx Survalesh Atoll Eclipsar El Tiburon How many of those are DF strictly for looking strange? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) How many of those are DF strictly for looking strange? Quoting each Disadvantage below. Some of them do have other DFs as well, but they are separate Disadvantages. Conquerors, Killer and Crooks Istvatha V'han and minions: Regal Bearing And Regalia/V'hanian Uniform Fiacho: Altered Ugly Human Durak: Smashed Scarred Face Ultrasonique: Scarred Face Binder: Facial Scarring Blackstar: Gray Skin Grond: Big Ugly Mutated Green Body Leech: Leech-Man Body The Monster: Monstrous Visage Shadowdragon: Dragon tattoo On Chest Slug: Elder Worm Body Arcane Adversaries Kapilasa (relevant for possession): Solid Black Eyes, No Matter What Body Vulshoth: Giant Sanity-Blasting Monster Angler: Living Hyper-Dimensional Geometry Mind Thief: Repulsive Slimy Bug-Thing Spawn of Vulshoth: Giant Sanity-Blasting Monster Squrm: Slimy Tentacled Horror Tobias Vandaleur: Face Of A Toad Viper: Coils of the Serpent VIPER Agents: VIPER Uniform Oculon: Alien Eyes Ripper: Purplish Flesh, Grafted Armor, Ten Feet Tall Demon: Servants of Darkness Luther Black: Visible Corruption of the Qliphotic Herr Doktor Pandemonium: Der Kehlkopf Strapped To His Face DEMON Brother: DEMON Robes DEMON Initiate: DEMON Robes Devil Dog: DEMON Robes Champions Universe: News of the World Slug: Elder Worm Body Champions Worldwide Obelisque: Enormous Jet-Black Monster Turs al-Sh'ab: Badly Scarred Joseph Otanga: Scarred face and Broken Nose Katar: Scarred Face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey88 Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I can't verify any of the rest of them on that list of those without Distinctive Features, but Hornet is described as able to change back into a human-looking form, IIRC. He hasn't paid points for it, so I'm assuming it's one of those handwavy-type-things where he could, say, subsume his insectoid looks at will, but it's not an instant change (taking a lot of combat rounds to do so) - and therefore not really more convenient than having a different outfit to change into. Some of the others might avoid distinctive features for similar reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) I can't verify any of the rest of them on that list of those without Distinctive Features' date=' but [b']Hornet[/b] is described as able to change back into a human-looking form. Some of the others might avoid distinctive features for similar reasons. Missed that one. I think I eliminated dual-form characters from the rest of the list though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) The usual guideline I use for DF is a line taken from "The Real Cyberpunk Handbook" Can the police identify you by the piercings/tattoos/rituals scars you have on your body? If the answers is yes/yes/yes you have a Distinctive Feature. DF to me usually, but not always, means "Unique Identifier" - like say "Giant Green Skinned Four Armed Person" ... not many of those around y'know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) The usual guideline I use for DF is a line taken from "The Real Cyberpunk Handbook" Can the police identify you by the piercings/tattoos/rituals scars you have on your body? If the answers is yes/yes/yes you have a Distinctive Feature. DF to me usually, but not always, means "Unique Identifier" - like say "Giant Green Skinned Four Armed Person" ... not many of those around y'know. Using that criteria, though, some characters wouldn't warrant it because the possibility of police catching and arresting them is irrelevant. For example, would the fact that Takofanes is very obviously Takofanes, really matter much to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Craig Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) recieved mine yesterday, good book, except the artwork is pretty bad. We've beat that issue to death, so besides that the book is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) Got mine yesterday too. I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV) ***Rise from the Grave!!! Awaken foul thread*** OK, with thread necromancy completed, I just wanted to check to see what characters people have actually put to use and what their assessment of the book is with a couple of miles on the odometer. Any particular favorites? Characters that you thought would be good that disappointed? Characters that you thought would be disappointing that have been pleasantly surprising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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