Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Chinese people aren't morons.  They understand Cold War propaganda.  We don't have to pretend it didn't exist or apologize for it.

 

Particularly given their attitude and portrayal of Americans.  And pretty much everyone else in the universe who isn't Chinese.

[assault]

The previous Chinese characters were villains, identified with the Chinese state because of the Cold War.

 

These characters are heroes, apparently.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Collective Man was a hero, he was in Challenge of Champions as China's representative.  I thought he was a particularly interesting and unique concept, one of the few really well done new world heroes they introduced.  Shamrock?  Really?

[Lord Liaden]

Peregrine was also a nice non-cliche French superhero from Marvel.

[Greywind]

Contest of Champions

[Ninja-Bear]

16 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I wonder how they feel about the past creations of Chinese heroes, not by the Chinese, but by American Marvel... the Collective Man, Red Lotus, etc?  Worse yet, the cliché and stereotypical villains Radioactive Man and Mandarin. How does Marvel deal with that? Will we see Aero and Lin Lie teaming up with the People's Defense Force?  heh. 

Probably about the same way I see how Americans are portrayed in old non American made films and video games. Which is *shrug*. I’ll correct my statement if someone finds actual evidence to to the contrary.

[assault]

7 hours ago, Greywind said:

Contest of Champions

 

Indeed.

 

Actually kind of fun to read 35 or so years later, but as lame as.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Peregrine was also a nice non-cliche French superhero from Marvel.

 

I liked Peregrine a lot, I agree.  So much so I added him to my world and even built him in to a NATO superhero group proposal I wrote up for Marvel as a comic book pitch.  Most of the characters I created for it were original because I didn't care for the weak caricatures and stereotypes offered for most European supers but Peregrine was cool.

[Matt the Bruins]

I've always thought Shang-Chi an excellent Chinese character at Marvel, even if his beginnings go back to Yellow Peril Pulp literature. Probably basing a lot of the character's look and style on Bruce Lee helped offset the more problematic aspects of that origin.

[Lord Liaden]

I keep hoping Marvel will bring back Shang-chi in some capacity. If they replaced Fu Manchu as his father with the very similar Yellow/Golden Claw, whom Marvel owns, they could avoid IP issues.

[Greywind]

Or they could just be done with his daddy issues and call it good.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah but having an evil dad is a great source for stories and personality conflicts.  The big advantage of Shang Chi is that he has neither a costume or a real superhero code name so Marvel's new breed of anti-comic trope guys should love him.

[Matt the Bruins]

I'm fairly certain I saw a one shot special featuring him in the last year or so, and he was in the Secret Defenders book not terribly long before that. As was his father, under the name Zheng Zu.

[Ranxerox]

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Presumably, Luke is involved in his own show at some point.

[Ranxerox]

Yes, he is going to introduce the episodes like Alfred Hitchcock did on his show.

[RDU Neil]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:56 PM, Lord Liaden said:

I keep hoping Marvel will bring back Shang-chi in some capacity. If they replaced Fu Manchu as his father with the very similar Yellow/Golden Claw, whom Marvel owns, they could avoid IP issues.

 

I kinda do, and I don't. I have the full run of the original Shang-Chi, from the Marvel Special Edition #15, on. Those comics, coming to them later, in the '80s as the series was wrapping up, and going back and getting the full collection... they were so formative... and so "of their time."

 

It was Pulp "yellow peril" re-envisioned through Cold War/James Bond and the Hippy movement/'70s counter culture and Bruce Lee (as noted above). It upended the white savior trope with a Chinese main character, and added  a dash of modern costumes/code names (mostly with the villains). 

 

Most importantly, it told a full character arc. Shang Chi never wanted to be involved in those "games of deceit and death" but he fought reluctantly, until, at the end, he defeated his father and walked off to become a fisherman.

 

Perfection.

 

There is no need to return to him, bring him, unaged, into the 21st century, where he is just an action guy amongst action guys.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Especially since their martial arts is all Jason Bourne or just terrible.  A real Kung Fu artist would be difficult to bring to the screen

[Greywind]

They can just splice in David Carradine for the fight scenes.

[RDU Neil]

4 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Especially since their martial arts is all Jason Bourne or just terrible.  A real Kung Fu artist would be difficult to bring to the screen

 

Oh yeah. I wasn't even thinking about Shang-Chi on screen... more of whether he is worth resurrecting in the Marvel comics. (They have, from time to time. He was in Secret Avengers, and recently guest starred in a couple issues of Iron Fist, etc.)

 

Martial Arts translated into visual/screen work... there are so many challenges.

1) Back in the day, simply "knowing martial arts" was practically a super power, and it was brought to the masses who knew nothing. These days, every kid has taken a karate class, the MMA has brought a realistic perspective on what can and can't be done with martial arts, and some form of martial arts are simply de rigeur for an action star, so it needs to be "more" to stand out.

2) once you start "standing out" with martial arts, you run into the "wuxia or not to wuxia" kind of thing, where martial arts take on a whole 'nother level of mythic super powers. This worked in the Matrix, as martial arts that broke the rules of physics was the "source" of super powers in that world... but...

3) In a world where there are multiple kinds of super powers and super powered martial arts, from Black Widow's non-powered, to Cap/Bucky's enhanced combato, to Black Panther's enhanced acrobatic style, all of which are stylized, but not classic in any sense... it becomes not just a matter of style, but continuity issues.  

 

Two examples: 1, the bring in Shang Chi, who uses classic kung-fu to be a super-hero... but it has already been established that martial arts arent' enough. You need tech gadgets or superhuman strength to really be bad ass... so where does that leave Shang-Chi?

 

Or example 2... say they really brought a mystic martial artist, whose study of ancient arts gives him superhuman powers... then why doesn't Black Widow study those martial arts and get powers, too? Or Cap get martial arts powers on top of his serum enhancements? Once you've shown that super powers can be "learned" then it should be replicated and lots of people should have them.

 

Finally, the big issue, as they showed with Iron Fist on Netflix, is that they have no idea how to "film" kung-fu in any good way. He is a character who should fight his way through an army of thugs, and was regularly getting beat down... brought down to a very normal level, let alone badly choreographed with an actor who wasn't a real martial artist. They would need someone like Daniel Wu (Into the Badlands) but that staged/semi-campy style of kung-fu action adventure works as an isolated genre... I don't know how it would translate into a world of multiple types of super powers and more "realistic" fighting styles.

 

I'd love to see someone really capable try... but it would take an excellent choreographer with an excellent action director and a very capable martial artist actor where they don't rely on CGI. The MCU has clearly delineated between "normal people fighting" and what "super powered fighting" looks like. Where would a Shang-Chi (or well done Iron Fist) actually fit in all that?

[Christopher R Taylor]

With Shang Chi I'd give him the super beautiful fluid, almost dance-like Kung Fu style with some mystical elements (not necessarily Iron Fist but low end stuff like dodging bullets, anticipating attacks, enhanced leaping, and inhumanly hard hitting, the kind that can crack steel and punch through car doors.  Stuff that's over the edge but close to humanly possible with extreme training.

[RDU Neil]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

With Shang Chi I'd give him the super beautiful fluid, almost dance-like Kung Fu style with some mystical elements (not necessarily Iron Fist but low end stuff like dodging bullets, anticipating attacks, enhanced leaping, and inhumanly hard hitting, the kind that can crack steel and punch through car doors.  Stuff that's over the edge but close to humanly possible with extreme training.

 

yes... exactly... but I'm wondering how/could they film that in such a way that really made Shang-Chi look unique... and again, they'd need to address the "Hey Natasha... Shang-Chi can punch through car doors... why can't you? You are both super-martial artists!"

 

Now, that can be addressed, but it would take some thought and nuance to the story telling.

 

But yeah... Daniel Wu as Shang-Chi... good stuff if done right.

 

Harkening back to the original series, one of the things I liked was that it stood alone. it was a "super agents" series (cinematic action adventure, not super powers)... not a "super hero" series, and was self-contained. Only later, did Marvel have Shang-Chi guest star in other comics. I never felt that he fit in the larger MU, myself.

 

[Bazza]

Natasha is a super-spy, not a 'super martial artist'. 

 

Shang-Chi would be very proficient, like the Shoalin monks. 

[Lord Liaden]

Well, one of the conventions of the comic-book martial arts sub-genre (inspired by Oriental MA folklore and fiction) is that techniques exist which if mastered, give the practitioner abilities beyond what people without those techniques can achieve. Typically they're known by very few, or are taught only in specific isolated or secret locations; and learning them requires not just years of dedication, and exceptional physical ability and mental discipline, but also spiritual awareness and growth. Often an aspiring student must prove to their teacher that they're "worthy" to be taught those techniques, by whatever criteria of worthiness they hold to. Comic-book Iron Fist had to follow such a path, as did David Carradine's Kwai-chang Caine. Heck, even Po the "Kung-fu Panda" went through that.

 

Black Widow has exceptional human-level fighting skill; but I doubt any of her trainers in the Red Room had much experience or interest in martial-art philosophy. And when you look at Natasha Romanov's history, whatever else she may be, "spiritual" she ain't.

[RDU Neil]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Well, one of the conventions of the comic-book martial arts sub-genre (inspired by Oriental MA folklore and fiction) is that techniques exist which if mastered, give the practitioner abilities beyond what people without those techniques can achieve. Typically they're known by very few, or are taught only in specific isolated or secret locations; and learning them requires not just years of dedication, and exceptional physical ability and mental discipline, but also spiritual awareness and growth. Often an aspiring student must prove to their teacher that they're "worthy" to be taught those techniques, by whatever criteria of worthiness they hold to. Comic-book Iron Fist had to follow such a path, as did David Carradine's Kwai-chang Caine. Heck, even Po the "Kung-fu Panda" went through that.

 

Black Widow has exceptional human-level fighting skill; but I doubt any of her trainers in the Red Room had much experience or interest in martial-art philosophy. And when you look at Natasha Romanov's history, whatever else she may be, "spiritual" she ain't.

 

And all that is good, but you better lay that out in the movie as a particular plot point, and a particular characteristic of the super martial artist. "It isn't just skill. It isn't just discipline and training... only the worthy can become true masters. You can be the greatest fighter in the world, but true master is... something else," or whatever.

 

Actually... this got me thinking, in that, I don't think there is a true "mystical martial artist" in the Marvel Universe. Iron Fist learned martial arts, but it was the heart of Kung Lung that gave him the extra power of Iron Fist. White Tiger is a great fighter, but the added strength and abilities comes from the Jade Talismans. Shang-Chi had no magic or added power, but he was never meant to be super human (as I mentioned above.) Daredevil is an acrobatic brawler, but he has subtle superpowers in his enhanced senses giving him perfect balance, find weakness, etc.

Is there any martial artist in Marvel comics that purely "learned" super powers like "chi blast" or "iron skin" or "dim mak" or anything? I'm not even going to the Dragonball Z level of Super Sayans who become cosmic super powers after a few rounds in the dojo.

 

Edit (The DCU, mostly building out of the Denny O'Neil work and later Chuck Dixon, has done a lot more with the great martial arts training mode... Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva, the Question, Batman, Robin, Black Canary, Connor Hawke, etc. What is interesting is all of them were considered the "greatest martial artists" but never displayed the mystic ability side of things. I remember some throwaway character from superman, who was essentially a mystic ninja with a glowy sword, and his abilities were from mystic martial arts, and I always felt that that character concept threw a wrench in their "best martial artist" concept.  I just can't think of where Marvel ever did that.)