Doc Shadow Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, Starlord said: A Morbius the Living Vampire movie? Superhero vampires are even worse than sparkly vampires. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Then beware if you play Champions Online -- PC vampire "heroes" are a dime a dozen there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Then we need to find out who's been supplying the dimes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Can't stand angsty-wangsty "I'm a good guy" vampires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 I actually had this discussion recently on the Champions Online forums, asking people playing monstrous characters like vampires and demons, what the appeal was. One replied, "Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere." To which I replied, "But many characters, including superheroes, struggle with internal conflicts from a wide variety of causes. Clark Kent fights to maintain his self-control and principles against the temptation to use his vast power however he wants. Peter Parker is torn between his desire for a normal happy life and his dedication to using his abilities responsibly. Bruce Wayne strives to keep his obsession with justice from crossing into becoming judge and executioner. Having to fight internal evil because one is a creature which is "naturally" evil just seems, I dunno, kind of simplistic to me." Another person responded, "Humans aren't naturally GOOD. Humans are at best neutral by nature. It's rather compelling when you take a being who was CREATED to do evil but chooses not to. It's like the old nature/nurture debate. How much of a person's personality is what they were born to be and how much is what they choose to be?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Defining your character as "naturally evil" is lazy and something of a creative cop-out, but D&D and its alignment system normalized that simplistic framework long ago. It's easy to see where that sort of thing came from, and not surprising that its influence still lingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 I think there can be something interesting about making heroes out of beings that everyone would naturally fear and/or hate ala Hellboy or old school demonic vampires. I do not count, sparkly angelic vampires who can easily pass for humans among that list. Matt the Bruins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Wow... dismissive much? Seriously... how is "naturally evil" any different from "berserker rage" in Wolverine or anything like that. A physiological limitation "Must drink blood" that can be fought, but with a cost, and worry that if suppressed will be even worse later... seems legit to me. (Now, calling that innately "evil" is different than calling it natural compulsion... so if you are getting into judging "what does evil mean?" then I'm even more down for that drama in play.)* So many people on this board are into "But that is what a superhero does... stand up for right and the little guy" etc. And talk about a cliché that is overdone. How is Superman's struggle or Batman's any less cliché? Or Tony Stark's alcoholism? Sure, Vampires are over done, but so is every single superhero cliché, so what is the big deal. Personal preference is all. *Actually... this makes me think you can use vampirism as a metaphor for addiction. Is Stark "evil" because he gives into his alcoholic nature and puts people in danger and fails his responsibilities? Is a vampire evil for giving into his bloodlust? I think this is actually very telling and an exploration of the players attitude toward addiction and will power, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Don't get me wrong, IMO that type of character has a place. Ghost Rider, Blade, Damon Hellstrom, Hellboy... there are certainly interesting stories to be told from backgrounds like that. But they're uncommon in comics, and I'd argue that rarity is part of what makes them distinctive. What I see from many gamers is that they're the sort of characters they go to first, because they're familiar. Lots of gamers come to supers from other types of games, and try to translate what they knew from those into the supers genre. Getting back to Morbius, the character is deep enough that a good movie could be made around him. But I do worry that Sony is going this route after Venom. I'd rather not see another attempt at a "dark" comic-book universe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, RDU Neil said: Wow... dismissive much? Seriously... how is "naturally evil" any different from "berserker rage" in Wolverine or anything like that. A physiological limitation "Must drink blood" that can be fought, but with a cost, and worry that if suppressed will be even worse later... seems legit to me. (Now, calling that innately "evil" is different than calling it natural compulsion... so if you are getting into judging "what does evil mean?" then I'm even more down for that drama in play.)* So many people on this board are into "But that is what a superhero does... stand up for right and the little guy" etc. And talk about a cliché that is overdone. How is Superman's struggle or Batman's any less cliché? Or Tony Stark's alcoholism? Sure, Vampires are over done, but so is every single superhero cliché, so what is the big deal. Personal preference is all. *Actually... this makes me think you can use vampirism as a metaphor for addiction. Is Stark "evil" because he gives into his alcoholic nature and puts people in danger and fails his responsibilities? Is a vampire evil for giving into his bloodlust? I think this is actually very telling and an exploration of the players attitude toward addiction and will power, etc. Well, the harm done by a vampire's blood lust is rather more direct than alcoholism. But it is an interesting analogy to draw. I'm afraid Wolverine isn't the most compelling example to me. I've never been impressed by the character. But boy, you do see an awful lot of feral clawed "heroes" in these games too. I think that, and the monstrous examples earlier, are symptomatic of what a lot of people in these fantasies gravitate to; being a "badass," able and willing to kill anyone who gives them grief. Something of a legacy from the Iron Age of comics, but just a small part of the genre's possibilities. Doc Shadow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: Don't get me wrong, IMO that type of character has a place. Ghost Rider, Blade, Damon Hellstrom, Hellboy... there are certainly interesting stories to be told from backgrounds like that. But they're uncommon in comics, and I'd argue that rarity is part of what makes them distinctive. What I see from many gamers is that they're the sort of characters they go to first, because they're familiar. Lots of gamers come to supers from other types of games, and try to translate what they knew from those into the supers genre. Getting back to Morbius, the character is deep enough that a good movie could be made around him. But I do worry that Sony is going this route after Venom. I'd rather not see another attempt at a "dark" comic-book universe... Well, if you go back to the '70s and so, yeah, those type of characters were less common. They are a staple of comics, these days. Back then, martial arts was still weird and exotic, so it was enough for Shang-Chi to be different. Punisher using guns and killing badguys was unusual for comics, so he was a fan favorite until he became a cliché. Wolverine the same thing. Just seems like it is the old argument of "I prefer my silver age/bronze age comic book stereotypes to the iron age platinum age comic book stereotypes" My issue with Morbius is that he never made much sense. Is he a vampire... a guy who had a weird problem that made him LIKE a vampire... magical or scientific? Curse or disease? Serum did what again? I think he was supposed to be a "sympathetic villain" originally... fighting Spider-man, right... but in the end, a nice guy trying to do the right thing, but cursed with disease that made him do bad vampire stuff? Unique at the time... horribly over done ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I'm afraid Wolverine isn't the most compelling example to me. I've never been impressed by the character. But boy, you do see an awful lot of feral clawed "heroes" in these games too. I think that, and the monstrous examples earlier, are symptomatic of what a lot of people in these fantasies gravitate to; being a "badass," able and willing to kill anyone who gives them grief. Something of a legacy from the Iron Age of comics, but just a small part of the genre's possibilities. Wolverine/Punisher/bad-ass is just the logical extreme of the whole super-hero concept. "I am stronger, better, than everyone else, and I enact violence to make things right, and I'm the judge of what is right, because I'm the hero." Super-heroes are a classic tautology, "I do the right thing because I'm the Hero. I'm the Hero, so what I do is right." And if you love the whole Superman/Cap ethos of "I will not abuse my power!" then getting all down on the "sparkly vampires" is hypocritical, because the whole point to the Cullin clan in Twilight was exactly that... vampires with great power making the decision to live a moral life, do good, not abuse their power, etc. Sure the books were terribly written, but so are most comic books. I'd think folks here would be praising them for their appropriate morals and upstanding ethos. drunkonduty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 These are pretty much all characters who started out good (or at least what we would call neutral) and then became not-so-good (or evil) due to some catalyzing event. That's quite different from a creature that was created from the outset to be nothing but evil. The former can return to good as part of a redemption arc. The latter simply goes from evil to good without first having been good, and we have to buy into their motivation to turn good, usually something schmaltzy like falling in love (with someone good), and most of the time that isn't pulled off very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 47 minutes ago, RDU Neil said: Wow... dismissive much? How was I dismissive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Starlord said: How was I dismissive? Not you... the posts before yours. I clicked "Submit" like one second after your post "plunked!" in... so sorry about that. Your post was not dismissive at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, zslane said: These are pretty much all characters who started out good (or at least what we would call neutral) and then became not-so-good (or evil) due to some catalyzing event. That's quite different from a creature that was created from the outset to be nothing but evil. The former can return to good as part of a redemption arc. The latter simply goes from evil to good without first having been good, and we have to buy into their motivation to turn good, usually something schmaltzy like falling in love (with someone good), and most of the time that isn't pulled off very well. Uhm... didn't you just describe the entire origin of Vision? Created to be evil by Ultron... and simply goes from evil to good... and we have to buy into his motivation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Depends on which version of Vision you are speaking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 On 6/27/2018 at 11:10 AM, Doc Shadow said: What kind of build up did Iron Man have? It had Robert Downey Jr.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 52 minutes ago, Cassandra said: It had Robert Downey Jr. But he wasn't "RDJ rockstar" back then. He was the ex-con ex-druggie punchline for many jokes. Many people considered casting him as Tony Stark to be a risk, until they saw what he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Quote But he wasn't "RDJ rockstar" back then. He was the ex-con ex-druggie punchline for many jokes. Many people considered casting him as Tony Stark to be a risk, until they saw what he did. Downey was a known commodity has an incredible actor, but flakey and a personal mess. When he did Kiss Kiss Bang Bang it was really his first appearance after he cleaned his act up, but he was always really good in every role. It was one of the most frustrating stories in Hollywood watching how the guy ruined his life over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Ironically, IM's lack of a script might have saved it, as it freed up RDJ to be RDJ (and Jeff to be Jeff). MCU production was hardly the well-oiled juggernaut then that it is now. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 Ironic Man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Well, the harm done by a vampire's blood lust is rather more direct than alcoholism Fatal DUIs are pretty direct harm. 4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: I actually had this discussion recently on the Champions Online forums, asking people playing monstrous characters like vampires and demons, what the appeal was. I think the appeal is "it looks cool" for most of the people making those characters. The rest is mostly rationalization. 3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: But they're uncommon in comics, and I'd argue that rarity is part of what makes them distinctive. The up side to this is that my primary-colored costumed crime fighters stand out in the crowd more. So, now we traditionalists get to be distinctive. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 This reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Mel Gibson asked Homer to help him with his version of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. The family passes a shoot out between the police and Robert Downey Jr, and Bart says "I don't see any cameras." Matt the Bruins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: But he wasn't "RDJ rockstar" back then. He was the ex-con ex-druggie punchline for many jokes. Many people considered casting him as Tony Stark to be a risk, until they saw what he did. Funny thing is, even then, I always thought he was the perfect choice for Tony, even before I knew there was going to be a movie. He just always seemed to be Tony in real life, addiction and all. Seemed a perfect fit. I actually couldn't picture anyone else in the role, which is funny, since IM is from well before RDJ became known. Christopher R Taylor, assault and Cassandra 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.