Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[drunkonduty]

If any one who isn't a white male wants to read about white male characters they certainly have plenty to choose from.

[Old Man]

Because Thor also carried the hammer.  See, Thorette PLUS Thor: cool, tell me the story.  Delete Thor and put a girl in his place to check off a diversity worksheet?  Not so cool.  Do it with several other characters at the same time?  Readers walking away...

I have to say this seems like splitting hairs.

 

What about their current crop of heroes makes them unable to bring in new readers?  Do you think nobody wants to read anything with white males?  Or that non-white-males will only read non-white-male content?

This gets back to another this I've talked about wrt diversity in comics and movies, which is that while there's nothing wrong with white male heroes, it can be easier to identify with characters that more closely resemble one's own background. Indeed, there is another thread in the NGD right now about a Native American who as a boy was so annoyed that Thunderbird got killed off in the X-Men that he eventually created his own comic line. It's not current-Marvel's fault that so many of their characters hail from a point in the twentieth century where things were more white and male, and I recognize that while tweaking existing characters is hardly a perfect solution, at least they're making an effort.

 

I'd argue that the publishers' real problem is writing. I'd have less of a problem with a Chinese woman becoming Captain American than with the whole Hydra-sleeper-agent storyline. Because to me Cap's value system is more key to the character than his ethnicity or genitalia.

[Bazza]

Article on sales slump and diversity also states that readers are having event fatigue (agree) and watching Uncle Ben die for the nth time (agree).

 

As Old Man states above Marvel is in a bind about established branded characters and new ones taking over those brands. To a certain degree Marvel found the solution already. Examples are: James Rhodes, Sam Wilson, T'Chulla, and Luke Cage. We can also include Beta Ray Bill. Established can step down and train the new characters. Would many people be as annoyed if Tony Stark trained the young woman to be Iron Man (Iron Woman) because he is busy running his corporation (or assisting Pepper, or just turning up to board meetings)? Or Steve Rogers trained Bucky and Sam to both be Captain America?

[zslane]

I'm curious how a Chinese woman (Madame Gao) came to be in charge of (or at the very least, such a prominent member of) a Japanese assassin cult. That kind of cultural cross-breeding is inconsistent with the vice-like grip each culture exerts over their respective (martial arts) traditions. It just doesn't ring true to my ears. It feels more like a mistake.

[drunkonduty]

Well in the Hand backstory (as explained in the Netflix 'verse)  is pretty old and may predate the existence of China and Japan as entities.

 

Also in DD season 1 Gao doesn't seem all that friendly toward the Hand. What I was pondering just last night is is she from a rival organisation or is she from a rival faction within the Hand? I dunno and I shall cease speculation here to avoid spoilers for others.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm curious how a Chinese woman (Madame Gao) came to be in charge of (or at the very least, such a prominent member of) a Japanese assassin cult. That kind of cultural cross-breeding is inconsistent with the vice-like grip each culture exerts over their respective (martial arts) traditions. It just doesn't ring true to my ears. It feels more like a mistake.

My thoughts on that are that The Hand is global. They recruit regardless of ethnicity or origin, as long as you have the skills to contribute to the cause.

 

The Hand seems to want to get into K'un Lun. Or wipe it out. In either case The Hand would be very interested in recruiting insiders from K'un Lun like Madame Gao. And she has the tenacity and skills to be able to rise high enough to run her own coven.

[Bazza]

How Spider-Man: Homecoming Begins and Ties into the MCU

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/features/833233-how-spider-man-homecoming-begins-and-ties-into-the-mcu#/slide/1

[dmjalund]

there is a rumour that Madame Gao was a former Iron Fist

[Bazza]

Why the Elders of the Universe Could Already Be Marvel's Greatest Villains

http://mcuexchange.com/elders-universe-marvels-greatest-villains/

 

Speculative and an intriguing theory. I learnt new things from reading it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I feel you're overlooking Tony's response when Cap protests that Bucky was under HYDRA's control, and not responsible: "I don't care. He killed my mom."

 

Which he totally cared nothing about for the previous, what 5 films he was in?  Suddenly its his defining characteristic he's wiling to murder for.  It was contrived, but not in a way too different from how comic books often work.

 

I have to say this seems like splitting hairs.

 

Well you can, I suppose, but what's wrong with coming up with someone new and interesting and exciting, while leaving fans their favorite and iconic characters? DC seems to be able to do it.

[BoloOfEarth]

I feel you're overlooking Tony's response when Cap protests that Bucky was under HYDRA's control, and not responsible: "I don't care. He killed my mom."

 

 

Which he totally cared nothing about for the previous, what 5 films he was in?  Suddenly its his defining characteristic he's wiling to murder for.  It was contrived, but not in a way too different from how comic books often work.

 

Prior to Zemo revealing to him that Bucky was responsible, didn't he think his parents died in a simple car accident?  Or did he already know that they were murdered, but not by whom?

 

I thought it was the former, but freely admit I could be mistaken.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Prior to Zemo revealing to him that Bucky was responsible, didn't he think his parents died in a simple car accident?

 

 

Possibly, but he didn't show the slightest indication he liked his parents in any remotest sense.  He never even referred to or mentioned his mom at all and showed contempt for his dad.  Then suddenly its the single most important thing in his entire life.  It just didn't work for me.

[Bazza]

 

08:18:20:17

[zslane]

Well in the Hand backstory (as explained in the Netflix 'verse)  is pretty old and may predate the existence of China and Japan as entities.

 

Maybe. But in the comics The Hand began as a 16th century Japanese samurai cult. I would have expected a hatred for the Chinese to continue well into the 20th century (you know, cuz of history), and continue unabated even to now. But maybe they'll recruit anyone they think they can use for their own purposes, regardless of centuries-long cultural enmity.

[Grailknight]

Possibly, but he didn't show the slightest indication he liked his parents in any remotest sense.  He never even referred to or mentioned his mom at all and showed contempt for his dad.  Then suddenly its the single most important thing in his entire life.  It just didn't work for me.

 

It wasn't the most important thing, it was the last straw.

 

Tony had his PTSD issues, his breakup with Pepper, Ultron and all the associated guilt(accented in the elevator scene), the seeming breakup of the team over the Accords, his best friend being paralyzed in a battle to aid a criminals escape(based on what he knew at the time) and then he is shown video of that criminal killing his father and mother and his supposed 2nd best friend(who is helping the criminal and breaking up the team) admits that he knew about the murders but didn't tell him. Remember that this is also the same guy who nearly shot him in the face during his escape. After all that, a reaction of " I'm gonna beat the crap out of this guy" is pretty normal IMO.

[zslane]

It wasn't the most important thing, it was the last straw.

 

Tony had his PTSD issues, his breakup with Pepper, Ultron and all the associated guilt(accented in the elevator scene), the seeming breakup of the team over the Accords, his best friend being paralyzed in a battle to aid a criminals escape(based on what he knew at the time) and then he is shown video of that criminal killing his father and mother and his supposed 2nd best friend(who is helping the criminal and breaking up the team) admits that he knew about the murders but didn't tell him. Remember that this is also the same guy who nearly shot him in the face during his escape. After all that, a reaction of " I'm gonna beat the crap out of this guy" is pretty normal IMO.

 

Of course, Zemo couldn't have known/been counting on any of that when he formulated his plan to destroy the Avengers by showing Stark that video footage. He seemed to be pretty confident that that alone would do the trick. Somehow he realized that showing their murder would send Tony into a fit of team-obliterating rage. Zemo's goal wasn't to end the Winter Soldier, it was to end the Avengers (as a team). One could argue that if it weren't for the buried trauma of Tony losing his parents, Zemo's plan would never have worked.

[Old Man]

Prior to Zemo revealing to him that Bucky was responsible, didn't he think his parents died in a simple car accident?  Or did he already know that they were murdered, but not by whom?

 

I thought it was the former, but freely admit I could be mistaken.

 

It was the former.  Tony's relationship with his dead father went through several iterations.  Originally he resented his father for being largely absent when he was growing up.  Then in IM2 he found Howard's message and had the tearful realization that his father was working on his behalf the entire time.  In the beginning of Civil War we see that he regrets having been so estranged from his parents, and then of course he discovers that their death wasn't accidental after all.  It's clear that Tony harbored a lot of resentment and/or guilt about his father all along, so it isn't that shocking when he loses it over Bucky.

[Pattern Ghost]

Going straight to wanting to murder Bucky, who was also a victim, is an unheroic level of overreaction. He didn't simply want to beat him up, he wanted him dead. If he had any streak of morality, the strongest response should have been, "Get him out of my sight," not murderous rampage. Even if they did set up the murderous rampage properly (which I can see arguments either way for), they sure as hell weren't doing the character any credit there.

[Grailknight]

The thing is Tony hasn't seen Bucky's remorse. He's read his file but the first he met him was when he was sticking a gun in his face during his escape. Then the fight at the airport happened, where Cap and Bucky never tried to tell Tony about Zemo. Then Rhodey. Sure Bucky expresses remorse to Cap and we, the viewers, see it but Tony isn't there for that conversation. Tony doesn't immediately attack when he confronts them in the base or immediately after the video, He snaps when he learns of Cap's betrayal. Just like Cap did to Widow in Winter Soldier.

[Pattern Ghost]

It's not the snap I find problematic, it's the level of murderous rage.

[Doc Shadow]

Going straight to wanting to murder Bucky, who was also a victim, is an unheroic level of overreaction. He didn't simply want to beat him up, he wanted him dead. If he had any streak of morality, the strongest response should have been, "Get him out of my sight," not murderous rampage. Even if they did set up the murderous rampage properly (which I can see arguments either way for), they sure as hell weren't doing the character any credit there.

 

They weren't trying to. They were trying to break the Avengers up. That was the plan. They wanted the team shattered for the start of Infinity War. Period. 

 

That's why Steve answered yes, when he should have said, truthfully, "I knew Hydra had killed them. I didn't know they'd used Bucky to do it."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Going straight to wanting to murder Bucky, who was also a victim, is an unheroic level of overreaction. He didn't simply want to beat him up, he wanted him dead. 

 

Yeah he went a bit over the top psychotic berserk from "mister happy go lucky get laid." reason: whatever you retrofit or try to justify, it was just "we wanted to do Civil War so here's what happens..."

[Lord Liaden]

That's why Steve answered yes, when he should have said, truthfully, "I knew Hydra had killed them. I didn't know they'd used Bucky to do it."

 

Actually, Steve did say, "I didn't know it was him [bucky]." Tony replied, "But did you know?" That's what Steve said, "Yes" to.

[Old Man]

Yeah he went a bit over the top psychotic berserk from "mister happy go lucky get laid." reason: whatever you retrofit or try to justify, it was just "we wanted to do Civil War so here's what happens..."

 

Absolutely.  But on the other hand, here we have Tony Stark, not exactly a model of psychological stability even under the best circumstances, and he is 1. exhausted 2. breaking up with Pepper 3. reeling from recent collateral casualties in Nigeria and Sokovia, the latter of which was arguably his fault.  People have done weirder things under pressure.

[Old Man]

Black Panther and Ms. Marvel Nominated for Hugo Awards Days After Marvel VP Blamed Them for Sales Slump

 

No, Diversity Didn't Kill Marvel's Sales

 

The latter article even has numbers!