Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

[drunkonduty]

@Cassandra

 

7 excellent questions. 

 

Am I mistaken or did I read somewhere that Wonder Woman was a late addition to the story? She certainly felt like a shoe-horned character. (Not as bad as when Spiderman and Antman were shoe-horned into Civil War, but still awkward.) That might explain why we didn't get any action shots of her til late.

 

I thought maybe I'd missed something with the whole bullet thing and Superman being blamed for doing... something... to a sovereign nation. Glad to see it wasn't me, it was them.

 

Yeah, the Parademon thing. ???? Seeing possible futures now, Bruce? So, was Bruce dreaming of the Flash trying to tell him stuff (without actually knowing who the Flash is); or was it an actual time-stream visitation from the Flash but somehow Bruce slept through it (but was aware of it); or it happened, then Bruce fell asleep and when he woke up thought it was a dream?

 

I get that they (the producers, et.al.) are trying to foreshadow the ongoing DC Universe development. But I also get the very distinct feeling that they haven't plotted out enough of the story going forward to know what the hell they are foreshadowing.

 

Ya know, thinking on this, I have a real disconnect with the creative process of the producers. They were running around firing their Chekov's Guns into the air like rednecks at a Trump rally but almost none of the foreshadowings (I'm making up words here) were helping the story they were telling. It was intended to foreshadow future movies. It was as if, at the meeting with the execs, everyone was going on about the need to get the franchise up and running. Not thinking about the movie they were actually making. Bad, bad, bad.

 

To add to the list of WTF moments:

 

Why did Diana Prince let Bruce Wayne be a patronising dick to her in their second scene? The scene where she gave back the drive. He comes up and takes her arm, if not forcefully then with a very definite implication of force being possible. If I was in that situation I might have broken a finger or two to let him know "hands to yourself, buddy." I mean c'mon, she's an Amazon Princess.

 

The fight between Batman and Supes. Very, very forced. More so than Civil War. Supes could have just opened with "Lex Luthor has my mother hostage..." and we could have skipped some serious stupid.

 

Also, why does the spaceship, that can identify DNA to the individual from just looking at, let Luthor in when he has nothing more than just some stolen finger tips?

 

Overall I think the movie was even crapper than Age of Ultron (absolutely the worst in the Marvel CU.)

 

My one positive take from the movie was I like Gal Gadot as WW and I shall go see her movie when it comes out.  Also, the chances of my girlfriend not wanting to see 2 hours of Jason Mamoa as a shirtless Aquaman are rather slim; I suspect I shall see that when it comes out too. So I haven't completely given up on the DC cineverse.

[Pattern Ghost]

She probably didn't break his fingers because she wanted to preserve her secret ID. She hadn't decided on intervention at that point, and was just looking for her old pic.

[Lord Liaden]

A thoughtful and pretty balanced examination of where the DCEU has been and where it may be headed: http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/tv-and-movies/warner-bros-dc-the-batman-and-its-director-problem/ar-AAmtUuS?li=AAggNb9

[Christopher R Taylor]

And the first rule in Hollywood is never assume your audience knows anything. Not even the events of the previous movie(s) in a franchise series.

 

 

They somehow managed to make 20+ James Bond movies without needing to show flashbacks constantly about the character.  Its just incompetent writing.

[bigdamnhero]

They somehow managed to make 20+ James Bond movies without needing to show flashbacks constantly about the character.  Its just incompetent writing.

Poor analogy: Bond isn't a character defined by his origin or backstory. Hell, he barely has one. Nobody has to ask "Wait, how did this guy become a spy?" because spies are a thing that exists in the real world (sortof) and people can get their heads around the notion. "Why does this guy fight crime dressed as a Bat?" is totally different, and not something most people can immediately relate to - especially for people who haven't been reading superhero comics for 20+ years, aka "the majority of the audience."

 

So I understand the impulse from the filmmaker's standpoint; they're trying to keep the character relatable. But I completely agree they're way overdoing it.

[bigdamnhero]

A thoughtful and pretty balanced examination of where the DCEU has been and where it may be headed: http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/tv-and-movies/warner-bros-dc-the-batman-and-its-director-problem/ar-AAmtUuS?li=AAggNb9

Interesting analysis, and some good points about how making a coherent franchise differs from the studios' usual one-and-done auteur-driven moviemaking. I can see where the demands of the franchise might cramp the creative styles/egos of directors used to having more free reign. (I think even Joss ran up against that on the Marvel side.)

 

But from my perspective, lack of continuity and inconsistent vision are far from the biggest problems with the DC/WB movies. I didn't hear anyone complain that BvS was too much of a departure from MoS - just the opposite in fact. And Suicide Squad was a little different only because they went back and reshot a bunch of stuff because audiences hated BvS so much. It's not as if the DC/WB films have been brilliantly made and well-received on their own, and just didn't fit well with each other into a greater whole.

[Cassandra]

Here's the thing - if they'd committed to that idea, they could've made an interesting movie out of it. It wouldn't have been a Superman movie, but it could've been interesting. But they kept wanting to have it both ways. Bats may see Supes as the villain, the film wanted us to sympathize with him as a misunderstood figure.

 

That was possibly the flimsiest thread of the whole stupid thing; there was absolutely no need for it. Nor was there any reason the public should assume that a bunch o bullet-riddled corpses were Superman's doing. And all he would've had to do is make one statement to the press about what really happened. But I guess he doesn't know any good reporters.

 

Yeah, he was clearly trying to channel the Joker, but he just came across as a coked-up imbecile. And the bit at the end with them ominously shaving his head in prison made me laugh out loud. You know they don't actually do that in prison, right?

 

Well, Diana Prince did have a couple scenes before that in civvies - she was the woman at the LexCorp party that was trying to steal data from Lex. It was kindof a throwaway; I didn't realize it was her until the scene was almost over.

 

I agree with you about Jesse Eisenberg was trying for a Joker instead of Lex Luthor.  It didn't occur to me that's what he was going for, but now it makes sense.  It was a horrible decision on his and the filmmakers part, but it finally makes sense.

 

I think they were trying to turn Diana Prince into the DC's version of Black Widow, having her as a spy along time lines of Natasha in Iron Man 2.  The fact that she seems to have abandoned humanity because of what happened in the First World War seems an excuse for not having her do anything over the last century.  If that was the plan why not have her show up during World War Two.  Is the problem she might have been filmed during the war and therefore Superman wouldn't have been the World's first "superhero"?  Marvel technically had that problem Captain America, and the fact that in Iron Man no one seemed familiar with SHIELD, but in later moves it's revealed the agency had been around since the late 1940s, and it's headquarters is in Washington, D.C..  The easy answer is just tell the story and retcon the background, not try to create a "perfect" timeline to explain it all.

 

Of course DC has been trying to do that since the Crisis on Infinite Earths, leaving the comics in nearly a big a mess as the Cinematic universe.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think the choice of World War I is to give her a strong motive for dumping humanity for X number of years, since it had an arguably greater psychic impact than WW II, having been the first modern war of its scale. Not that WW II wasn't horrible enough, but WW I was "The War to End All Wars," because of the public's newfound awareness of the horrors of war. It's also a lot murkier in its motivations, without as clear of a division of good and evil, and would appear to an outsider in a much more negative light than stopping the Axis would. There was a bit of discussion over that choice in the WW movie thread. I think it's a choice that could work pretty well.

 

I like the choice of having her outfox Bats. I'm guessing it was more intended to show her as having been around the block a few times/the wisdom that comes with her age vs. his high intellect, than to turn her into a Black Widow type. (Though that's a perfectly plausible theory, too, the way Hollywood execs think -- "like that but different" being a rallying cry for most of them.)

[Cassandra]

I think the choice of World War I is to give her a strong motive for dumping humanity for X number of years, since it had an arguably greater psychic impact than WW II, having been the first modern war of its scale. Not that WW II wasn't horrible enough, but WW I was "The War to End All Wars," because of the public's newfound awareness of the horrors of war. It's also a lot murkier in its motivations, without as clear of a division of good and evil, and would appear to an outsider in a much more negative light than stopping the Axis would. There was a bit of discussion over that choice in the WW movie thread. I think it's a choice that could work pretty well.

 

I like the choice of having her outfox Bats. I'm guessing it was more intended to show her as having been around the block a few times/the wisdom that comes with her age vs. his high intellect, than to turn her into a Black Widow type. (Though that's a perfectly plausible theory, too, the way Hollywood execs think -- "like that but different" being a rallying cry for most of them.

 

Using World War One as an excuse for Wonder Woman abandoning humanity is historically inaccurate.  Yes, it was bloody and had machine guns and trench warfare, but anyone who has lived for five thousand years would have witnessed far more barbarism in her time.  Furthermore The Great War was, and had to be seen, as a victory over the Imperialism of and Central Powers in an area where patriotism precluded criticizing one's own countries imperialism.   Maybe She would turn away from the World because she didn't think it was worth it, but that seems like just an excuse.

 

And if she did leave for decades, how does she know how to crack a security system?

[bigdamnhero]

It's also a lot murkier in its motivations, without as clear of a division of good and evil, and would appear to an outsider in a much more negative light than stopping the Axis would.

I think that's a big part of it - Fighting Nazis has too much moral clarity for the Snyderverse. But I suspect the driving factor was simply trying to avoid comparisons with Captain America.

 

I like the choice of having her outfox Bats.

Let's be honest, outfoxing this iteration of Batman isn't exactly a high bar.

[Cassandra]

I think that's a big part of it - Fighting Nazis has too much moral clarity for the Snyderverse. But I suspect the driving factor was simply trying to avoid comparisons with Captain America.

 

Let's be honest, outfoxing this iteration of Batman isn't exactly a high bar.

 

So they don't want comparisons to a popular superhero movie and think that setting it during the same war would make it seem too much like a ripoff, so they decided to disrespect the character's origin for the sake of being different.

 

That's as bad an idea as putting her in pants.

 

And your right about that version of Batman. Even Adam West would have been able to see through her quicker then Batfleck did.

[aylwin13]

These discussions are fascinating. Just continue to keep me convinced to never watch any of the DC movies... ever.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think that's a big part of it - Fighting Nazis has too much moral clarity for the Snyderverse. But I suspect the driving factor was simply trying to avoid comparisons with Captain America.

 

Probably the best theory. They gave her a shield, but having her fight in the same war might be seen as confusing to the audience, who Hollywood execs seem to think is dumber than a mud fence.

[Old Man]

Using World War One as an excuse for Wonder Woman abandoning humanity is historically inaccurate.  Yes, it was bloody and had machine guns and trench warfare, but anyone who has lived for five thousand years would have witnessed far more barbarism in her time.  Furthermore The Great War was, and had to be seen, as a victory over the Imperialism of and Central Powers in an area where patriotism precluded criticizing one's own countries imperialism.

There has been plenty of barbarism in mankind's history, yes, but WWI was really the first instance of mechanized slaughter on a scale of millions. I also don't get the sense that she would have stuck around to see how it all ended.

[zslane]

If you believe the pre-production interviews, it isn't that the Nazis were too clearly evil for the Snyderverse, it's that they were too clearly evil for a story in which the writers wanted Wonder Woman to confront the evils of all warlike men and the carnage they create, not just one specific sect of them. The scope of villainy is much greater if Ares is seen to be infecting an entire continent of otherwise well-meaning (if deeply flawed) men, rather than guiding just a single nation of fascist zealots.

[drunkonduty]

Batfleck. heh heh.

 

I could rant so long and so hard about producers at this point. They are a pet hate of mine.

 

I'll keep it brief and just say that many producers (all but 2 in my personal experience) think they have a great insight into what makes good, creative work. Fact is most of them do not. To then make matters worse there are many, many producers involved in any production, all of whom are keen to make sure their voice is heard. Not so much for creative reasons as to make sure people know they are there and worth keeping on the pay roll. This dynamic tends to turn many movies and TV shows into cluster f***s.

 

Add to this the seeming contempt many movie makers (not just producers here) have for their audience. I think I could write a very long essay on why this phenomena exists. But there is an assumption, that dates from many years ago, that the audience is not media savvy. This assumption could not be more wrong. Yet it continues to colour the way in which productions are made.

 

When you consider these two points in light of the desperate scramble to get the DC cineverse into some sort of shape to rival the Marvel one then the continuing cluster f*** is not surprising. I'd say its inevitable.

 

As an aside:

I wonder if the increasing use of the term Show Runner is being used by people with actual creative insights as a means of distancing themselves from a despised term, i.e. "producer." Probably not. It's probably just me putting y spin on it.

[drunkonduty]

If you believe the pre-production interviews, it isn't that the Nazis were too clearly evil for the Snyderverse, it's that they were too clearly evil for a story in which the writers wanted Wonder Woman to confront the evils of all warlike men and the carnage they create, not just one specific sect of them. The scope of villainy is much greater if Ares is seen to be infecting an entire continent of otherwise well-meaning (if deeply flawed) men, rather than guiding just a single nation of fascist zealots.

 

 

This works for me. Even if it is an arse-pull on the part of the producers to avoid saying they are scared of looking like a Captain America rip off. (Not saying I think it is, merely that it doesn't matter.) As long as this becomes a coherent part of the story. In fact I like it as a theme. It's a very good theme. Much better than a black and white morality tale.

 

WW continues to look like a movie I shall enjoy.

[Lord Liaden]

I also believe Wonder Woman's origin will have an effect on her perspective. If they go with her classic, clay-statue-brought-to-life origin -- which the first trailer pretty much states they are -- then Diana lived however long her life has been on Themiscyra, without having experienced the barbarism of "Man's World" firsthand the way her sisters have. Her comments in the trailers sound like she has an idealism, even naivete, that isn't shared by the other Amazons. If she comes from that kind of background, WW I would be the rudest of awakenings.

[Ternaugh]

My brain keeps on rebelling and making the title "Tony Orlando and Dawn of Justice". Obviously, Superman gets his power from yellow ribbons in that one, and Batman must knock three times on the ceiling (or is it twice on the pipes?) in order to enter the Batcave.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm hoping WWI wonder woman is the one that Diana is taught by or something rather than her being around all this time but unknown somehow

[Bazza]

Naturally Wonder Woman takes place in World War One, just as its sequel would take place in World War Two.

 

WW -- WWI

WW Sequel -- WWII.

 

Obvious right.

[zslane]

Except that we already know that Diana removed herself from worldly affairs after WWI. She didn't participate in WWII, so any sequel that takes place during WWII would have to do so without her in it.

[Ternaugh]

Except that we already know that Diana removed herself from worldly affairs after WWI. She didn't participate in WWII, so any sequel that takes place during WWII would have to do so without her in it.

 

Sorry, just got back from watching the Flash time travel again.

 

Yup. Makes perfect sense. No possible way they'd ever put Wonder Woman into WWII.

[bigdamnhero]

Probably the best theory. They gave her a shield, but having her fight in the same war might be seen as confusing to the audience...

I don't think they're so worried about being confusing as much as looking like a rip-off.

[bigdamnhero]

If you believe the pre-production interviews, it isn't that the Nazis were too clearly evil for the Snyderverse, it's that they were too clearly evil for a story in which the writers wanted Wonder Woman to confront the evils of all warlike men and the carnage they create, not just one specific sect of them. The scope of villainy is much greater if Ares is seen to be infecting an entire continent of otherwise well-meaning (if deeply flawed) men, rather than guiding just a single nation of fascist zealots.

That actually makes some sense. Maybe too much sense for a DC movie...