DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Bazza]

Pepper Potts' new code name Extremis Woman. 

[sinanju]

That's even worse. If they keep the powers without the threat of exploding you've got an assemby line that the military will be all over. Even if they lose them after the regeneration, people will risk death rather than live mutilated.

 

Not really. The technique already exists, and at worst, Tony can reverse it. There are still plenty of people who'd try to use it, even given the risks.

 

But in any case, this is only my headcanon. Pepper still has the Extremis powers, but no longer has to fear exploding if she overdoes it.

[dmjalund]

Pepper Potts' new code name Extremis Woman. 

So.. not Extreme Miss?

[Hugh Neilson]

This. I freely admit the CW shows aren't exactly Emmy material, and I could definitely do with dialing down the teen angst/soap opera quotient a few notches. But compared to the superhero shows I grew up with, they're effing high art! If they don't work for you, fine. But saying "they're not as good as the comics" really begs the question: "Which comics?" There's an awful lot of crap being published too.

THIS - I would like those who consider the current crop on TV unwatchable dreck to provide their current comic reads for comparison.

 

And comparing the current crop of superhero shows to the ones I grew up with? No contest!

 

AND THIS FOR SURE! - What superhero shows? The Incredible Hulk? Thing Ring Do Your Thing? Oh, for those thrilling days of yesteryear...NOT.

 

In that vein, finally made time to see Suicide Squad yesterday. Thanks to the cooler heads on the Boards for the points in the right direction. Hamlet it's not, nor should it be, and it takes some liberties with some of the characters, but had I walked in not knowing the movie's title or premise, that was definitely Amanda Waller and Harley Quinn. Katana, Croc and El Diablo were pretty good work at bringing those characters to life as well. Deadshot deviates the most from the comics, but there's his costume, his core premise is unchanged and he worked well in the movie. And Capt Boomerang? Well, he was in the whole series, before recent reboots, and that's probably as close as we'll get in a live action medium, so OK.

 

And I loved the name on the building - definitely good when the movies shout out the real creators.

[zslane]

THIS - I would like those who consider the current crop on TV unwatchable dreck to provide their current comic reads for comparison.

Gail Simone's Batgirl run from the New 52. (Would that be the Old 52 now?)

 

Astro City.

 

Nothing terribly "current". Superhero comics right now seem to be trapped in a quality pit along with superhero television. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

[Hugh Neilson]

So if you like virtually nothing in the source material, why would you expect the translation of the source material to another mention make it match your preferences.

 

I`m not sure what to call the New 52 (and I had asked what we call it when the books that were there at the start hit issue 52 more than a couple of years back). I think Old 52 is probably preferable to Prebirth.

 

So what superhero material in the past was so head and shoulders superior to what we see today? Are there comics you have re-read recently that hold up to your current high standards, or does the passage of time make the old stuff seem better because the stellar stuff is remembered and the dreck forgotten?

[zslane]

So what superhero material in the past was so head and shoulders superior to what we see today? Are there comics you have re-read recently that hold up to your current high standards, or does the passage of time make the old stuff seem better because the stellar stuff is remembered and the dreck forgotten?

The Dark Phoenix Saga. The Ballad of Beta Ray Bill. Just to name a couple.

 

Most of the source material ranges from pretty bad to slightly above mediocre. But a select few things over the years have been stellar. A great many of the tropes that have become traditional within the form can be found in everything, good and bad. As I see it, the job of a Hollywood screenwriter (and the producer who manages the overall creative process) is to sift the wheat from the chaff and give us movies inspired and guided by the really good stuff, not the crap.

 

Bear in mind that I am speaking as a consumer, whose only concern (for the purposes of this discussion) is the quality and creativity of the product I see. I am not speaking as a producer, studio executive, or company shareholder whose primary concern is financial.

[assault]

And comparing the current crop of superhero shows to the ones I grew up with? No contest!

 

Obviously this depends on your age.

 

Budgets were a serious restriction back in the early days. That's why the 70s Incredible Hulk seems a little pedestrian these days. Wonder Woman probably suffers from this too, although I am much less familiar with it. And the 1950s Superman is just plain old (and before my time).

 

But there were exceptions. Most obviously, the ones that didn't take themselves too seriously. The Greatest American Hero sometimes reached levels of awesome that the current shows aren't even allowed to think about.

 

And then, of course, there was the most popular superhero show of all. Batman.

 

They're not allowed to make shows like that any more.

 

...

 

Honourable mentions to Lois and Clark, the Salkind Superboy series, and a few other competent shows that have largely fallen down the memory hole.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Pepper Potts' new code name Extremis Woman. 

 

In the 90s she'd be XXXTREME!!!!

[Lord Liaden]

I was thinking "Miss Extreme." Or maybe "Ms. Extreme" would be more politically correct.

[Hugh Neilson]

The Dark Phoenix Saga. The Ballad of Beta Ray Bill. Just to name a couple.

Seems like you had to reach a long way back to find those few. But you also hit on the key, IMO:

 

Most of the source material ranges from pretty bad to slightly above mediocre. But a select few things over the years have been stellar.

I will suggest a "fan" enjoys the average produced by the medium, not just the select few, once every few years or so, that are truly Stellar.

 

And the reality is that movies are also going to range from pretty bad to slightly above mediocre to truly stellar. I think the current MCU and even DCU crop has done pretty well in avoiding, or at least minimizing the "pretty bad" (Halle Barry as Catwoman, anyone? The Daredevil, Ghost Rider and Punisher movies? Batman's armor with nipples? The Fantastic Four movies? Compared to these, how does MCU or DCU look?). But the average movie is going to be an average movie. No one sets out to create dreck, but sometimes they do. Much more often they reach high, but achieve average.

 

Obviously this depends on your age.

 

Budgets were a serious restriction back in the early days. That's why the 70s Incredible Hulk seems a little pedestrian these days. Wonder Woman probably suffers from this too, although I am much less familiar with it. And the 1950s Superman is just plain old (and before my time).

I can't speak to '50s Superman. I think Wonder Woman embraced Supers, at least to some extent, with the advantage that DC tended more towards ordinary human adversaries/criminal masterminds than the Marvel Super Villain of the Month model. The '70s Hulk was a "fugitive with a heart of gold" show with a quasi-Supers twist, not really a Supers movie. I recall reading about Ferrigno being frustrated that the Hulk was not allowed to develop - it was really the Bixby/Banner Show.

 

But there were exceptions. Most obviously, the ones that didn't take themselves too seriously. The Greatest American Hero sometimes reached levels of awesome that the current shows aren't even allowed to think about.

I'd call that a "dramady", though it predated the term, wrapped in superhero trappings.

 

And then, of course, there was the most popular superhero show of all. Batman.

I'm never quite sure where to classify that one - SitCom Supers to some extent. But it did that well, and was entertaining. Largely because of that, it holds up.

 

The reality is that even restricted to Supers, comics can cover a wide array of genres. The Cap producers got that - they were quoted as calling the First Avenger a WW II film wrapped in comic book superheroes, with the Winter Solder being a political thriller wrapped in Superheroes. Even The Avengers could be described as an alien invasion flick, wrapped in Supers, and (at least to me) the first Iron Man film was more science fiction (of the armored suit/cyborg/robot variety) than superheroes. Superheroes have proven to be able to cross over with, and emulate, many genres.

[Iuz the Evil]

The Greatest American Hero. That was pure awesome, the aliens sending messages over the radio was a fantastic bit. Great theme song.

[Bazza]

@ Hugh: Ant-Man is a classic heist film...with supers.

[BoloOfEarth]

Over the past month I've been digging out and re-reading my old (1980s era) comic books.  Amazing Spider-Man, Peter Parker, and Web of Spider-Man.  Marvel Team-Up.  Captain America.  Invincible Iron Man.  Booster Gold.  Admittedly not a lot of DC in there; I'm mostly a Marvel man.

 

There are some issues that are real gems.  I'll also admit that I discovered there's some real dreck in there.  (Anyone remember the City Stealers taking the island of Manhattan out to sea to hold it hostage, and Hercules pulling it back into place with massive chains?)  Overall, I'd say the real gems and real dreck were about equal in number, with most issues falling into the midrange of "okay but nothing spectacularly good or bad".

 

Since I'm not a current comic book collector, I can't speak for most of what's out there right now.  Over the past week I've been reading some newer issues online -- again, Spider-Man, Iron Man, plus Astonishing Ant Man.  The latter one quite often tips the "ridiculousness" scale (the "How to Do an Award-Winning Heist in 22 Easy Steps" in issue #9 [i think] is a frickin' classic), but it's obviously intentionally so.  But there were definitely some eye-rolling moments with both Spidey and Shellhead.

[bigdamnhero]

My current comics list is mostly indie stuff - a lot of Image and so forth. I gave up on DC after New 52, and while I've heard some good things about the latest reboot I think I'm suffering from relaunch fatigue. There are still several good Marvel titles, tho crossover fatigue is the problem on that side. Ms. Marvel continues to be a delight. Spider-Man is actually fun again, the new Thor is interesting...I'm blanking out on other titles at the moment, and frankly haven't been keeping up over the last several months because reasons.

 

But I think the point is there have always been good comics stories and bad comics stories. Looking back it's easier to remember the good bits and forget the bad bits, whereas today I notice more ex-fans pointing at One Awful Story and using that to condemn the entire industry. Also, if you go back and re-read a lot of the great stories you remember, you may find not all of them hold up as well today. Some great story ideas, but some of the writing was pretty weak by today's standards.

 

As for superhero TV shows, I agree they weren't all awful. But even the best of them are painfully cheesy by modern standards. Mostly because the show runners refused to take the concept seriously and treated them like live-action cartoons. The fact that they were almost completely devoid of supervilllains certainly didn't help. If we're grading on a curve I'd say 70s Wonder Woman and 80s Greatest American Hero are among the best of their day, but neither could compete today with Supergirl, let alone Daredevil or Jessica Jones. (Unless you really like camp, in which case more power to you but I'll be over here.)

[bigdamnhero]

But there were exceptions. Most obviously, the ones that didn't take themselves too seriously.

And I don't think "took themselves too seriously" was a problem with any early superhero TV show I can think of; most of them had the exact opposite problem. 70s Wonder Woman came close at times, mainly because Linda Carter always insisted on taking her character seriously even when the writers put her in a skateboarding-variant costume or have her investigating a haunted roller coaster that would've had the Scooby Do gang rolling their eyes.

 

And I agree about Greatest American Hero, but even that show was more "fun" than "good" per se.

[Cassandra]

I hope you didn't grow up with The Greatest American Hero. Because that's the best superhero show ever and always will be.

 

By the way, that's not my subjective opinion. That's an absolute fact.

 

They tried to reboot the series in 1985 with Mary Ellen Stuart replacing William Katt in hopes of Syndicating the series.  The plot had Ralph exposed in public and the Aliens erasing everyone's memories of the fact.  They Aliens insist on a new wearer for the suit, and Ralph picks Teacher Holly Hathaway.  

[Burrito Boy]

They tried to reboot the series in 1985 with Mary Ellen Stuart replacing William Katt in hopes of Syndicating the series. The plot had Ralph exposed in public and the Aliens erasing everyone's memories of the fact. They Aliens insist on a new wearer for the suit, and Ralph picks Teacher Holly Hathaway.

Yeah, that pilot is a special feature on one of the DVD sets of The Greatest American Hero. (I forget which season.) I try to pretend that I never saw it. It's...not good.

[Pattern Ghost]

And I agree about Greatest American Hero, but even that show was more "fun" than "good" per se.

 

More fun = more good, and Greatest American Hero was a lot of fun.

[zslane]

I will suggest a "fan" enjoys the average produced by the medium, not just the select few, once every few years or so, that are truly Stellar.

 

I will counter-suggest that your typical "fan" tolerates the average product produced by the medium, but if pressed on the matter would admit they don't necessarily enjoy it. Once a fan becomes invested in a character they will often stick with a title/show, even through long periods of junk, waiting for a really good story to come along. For example, a lot of people stuck with Smallville long after it jumped the shark because some folks just don't know when to let go. But let's not pretend that just because fans are frequently masochistic (or unable to discern good storytelling from mediocre/bad storytelling), that the less-than-stellar content is worthy of emulation/perpetuation.

[Nolgroth]

So everything past Smallville S1:E2?

 

I kid. I'm not sure when it jumped the shark. I was too busy watching Lois and Chloe. Hey. I was younger and more shallow then. I've gotten out of the kiddie pool and into the wading pool now. I would say soon I'd be at the deep end, but I might just be mixing metaphors at that point. 

[zslane]

It jumped the shark when they got rid of Lex.

[Pattern Ghost]

It jumped the shark before that. We quit after Lana got spinny kung fu superpowers.

[Nolgroth]

Spinny kung fu superpowers. That does it. If I ever make a Champions character for real, THAT is going to be the name of the Martial Art I use.

[Bazza]

It lost its focus after season 3 when Clark's best friend left.