DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Cassandra]

Well, let's see:

 

Iron Monger: Dead

Whiplash: Dead

Justin Hammer: Alive

General Ross: Alive and Promoted

Abomination: Alive

Leader (potentially): Alive

Loki: Alive

Laufey: Dead

Destroyer: Destroyed

Red Skull: Indeterminate

Arnim Zola: Reused, now Dead (apparently)

Thanos: Alive (as cameo)

The Other (Thanos's minion): Dead

Mandarin (real one):  Alive?

Aldrich Killian: Dead

Malekith: Dead

Curse: Dead

Alexander Pierce: Dead

Batroc: Alive

Brock Rumlov/Crossbones: Reused, now Dead

Ronan: Dead

Nebula: Alive

Yondu: Alive

Collector: Alive

Ultron: Dead

Baron Strucker: Dead

Klaw: Alive

Yellowjacket: Dead

Zemo: Alive

 

Not universal death, but the balance is definitely on that side.

 

 

Nice work on the list, but the Heroes need to have individual fights with a Villain before taking down the Mastermind.  Otherwise they end up fighting hordes of expendable anonymous agents, aliens, or robots and you can only do that a couple of times before the Heroes end up fighting each other.

 

Which basically covers the history of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[Cassandra]

I noticed no one is talking about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. 

[Starlord]

Ultron is ALWAYS thought to be destroyed, but....

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the advantage of Ultron is that he can always come back.  My money is on Vision doing a mind wipe on Ultron, not on him being wiped out.

[zslane]

I don't believe that villains need to be killed off just because the medium is film. I do believe, however, that villains are being killed off because Marvel/Disney seems to think it is necessary (and for reasons nobody can really fathom).

[pinecone]

Well...in part I think is that the movie universe is built with the idea that violence is a dangerous business, and that means people need to be shown being killed and injured. You don't want to take out a hero, so villians, and civilians have to do.

 

Sort of an unstated "don't try this at home"  message...

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah, it's definitely more than a Marvel/Disney thing. The Rules of Action Movies state the Bad Guy must die at the end - there are a few exceptions obviously, but they're fairly rare.

[zslane]

In other words, they are arbitrarily redefining a fundamental superhero genre trope. I'm sure I can guess at the reasoning behind this, but it is flawed reasoning, in my view, no matter how they spin it.

[bigdamnhero]

That's because to you (and me), these are superhero stories. To the studios, they're action movies that happen to star superheroes, and they're not going to "arbitrarily" define a fundamental action movie trope just because it happens to conflict with a bunch of comics books. I'm not saying I like or agree with it. But from their perspective it's far from arbitrary.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think that's very accurate.  That's why they don't often even wear costumes, or have code names (except in DC, so far).  Iron Man is the only guy with a costume and code name, but he instantly gave away his ID and changes the costume several times each movie.  That's why the villains are just disposable bad guys, not repeat villains.  Excellent point bigdamnhero.  No wonder you're so damned big.

[zslane]

Well, if you're right, then it goes without saying we have yet to see a genuine superhero movie out of Marvel/Disney, except perhaps by accident rather than intent.

[Burrito Boy]

I think that's very accurate. That's why they don't often even wear costumes, or have code names (except in DC, so far). Iron Man is the only guy with a costume and code name, but he instantly gave away his ID and changes the costume several times each movie. That's why the villains are just disposable bad guys, not repeat villains. Excellent point bigdamnhero. No wonder you're so damned big.

And here I thought he was big because he got bit by a radioactive giant.

[Old Man]

Well, if you're right, then it goes without saying we have yet to see a genuine superhero movie out of Marvel/Disney, except perhaps by accident rather than intent.

Well, half that list of villains is still alive. (Not that a 50% fatality rate is exactly consistent with superhero tropes, but OTOH I find that villains actually "die" pretty often in the comics, only to return later as the result of a rad accident or extremely improbable deus ex machina.)

[slikmar]

I don't know if he counts, but Zemo is still alive, despite his efforts to get Panther to kill him. And I figure he is probably held in either Wakanda or was handed over to the task force and is being held in the Raft - potentially with the other powered beings who are still alive. So maybe he still can form a version of the Masters of Evil. And for those who think he is a non powered human and therefore wouldnt be held there, Clint Barton, Sam Wilson and Scott Lang are all non powered without their gear.

[Grailknight]

And as long as Justin Hammer is alive there could still be villains in the Iron Monger/Whiplash vein.  The Destroyer can be reforged. The Abomination Formula is still out there. And then we have Extremis which really should be researched actively but clandestinely because regenerating lost body parts is kinda a multiple Nobel Prize medical breakthrough and it can be safely removed from the patient afterward, 

 

The plots can be reused but the original villains weren't iconic enough to be necessary. Ross. Thanos and Loki are not  so minor as to be casually discarded.

[bigdamnhero]

I think that's very accurate.  That's why they don't often even wear costumes, or have code names (except in DC, so far).

Well, basically all the original Avengers have hero names except Thor, as do Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Black Panther, War Machine... They have public identities and their real names get used at least as often as their hero names. But still, not quite accurate to say they don't have them.

 

Excellent point bigdamnhero.  No wonder you're so damned big.

Aw shucks! [blushes]

 

Actually I used to volunteer at a screenwriting conference for several years, so I had the opportunity to listen to/talk with actual working screenwriters, producers, etc. So perhaps it gave me a few bits of insight into The Way Hollywood Works. Like a lot of complex and insular societies it seems to often make no sense from the outside, but if you get a chance to peek behind the curtain you realize there are usually reasons that seem to make sense to people on the inside. Not saying they are always good or logical reasons, mind you; but it's not as completely coke-fueled randomshit as it sometimes seems.

[Lord Liaden]

I think that's very accurate.  That's why they don't often even wear costumes, or have code names (except in DC, so far).  Iron Man is the only guy with a costume and code name, but he instantly gave away his ID and changes the costume several times each movie.  That's why the villains are just disposable bad guys, not repeat villains.  Excellent point bigdamnhero.  No wonder you're so damned big.

 

Captain America has a costume and code name. He was created to be a visual symbol, and people call him "Cap" more often than "Steve." T'challa also wears a symbolic costume, and has referred to the identity of the Black Panther by name. Scott Lang calls himself "Ant-Man," and Peter Parker, "Spider-Man," and they certainly have distinctive costumes. Lang also recognized Sam Wilson as "the Falcon," so that code name has to be out in the public awareness.

[Christopher R Taylor]

But Captain America is almost never actually called that in any films.  I think its mentioned once in the first movie, but then most of the time its just "Captain," if anything and quite often just his name.  His costume is more of a costume than most, but few.  The only really consistent use of code names is in Ant-Man, which was deliberately done more light-hearted and comic book feeling than the rest.  Its not like the comics, at all.  Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four all are outside Marvel studios so they are under different rules.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure Fabian Niswhatsisface and the rest in charge at Marvel find superhero names, secret identities, bright costumes, strong moral character and all the rest sort of embarrassing old fashioned stuff they are cooler than, so that translates into the MCU as well.

[zslane]

Also, I'm pretty sure Fabian Niswhatsisface and the rest in charge at Marvel find superhero names, secret identities, bright costumes, strong moral character and all the rest sort of embarrassing old fashioned stuff they are cooler than, so that translates into the MCU as well.

Agreed.

 

And the 50% survival rate for MCU villains is perhaps a bit misleading, at least in my view, since many of the characters listed aren't bona fide villains (yet). I also don't agree that just because a villain isn't regarded as "iconic" within Marvel's pantheon, that it is okay (or even congruent with classic superhero tropes) to treat them as so utterly disposable that killing them off should be the go-to move for a writer.

[Bazza]

The demands & publishing aims are different between a feature cinematic film and a monthly comic book. The film realistically will be produced a limited number of times, eg a trilogy. A monthly comic book needs 12 issues a year in perpetuity.

 

Thus: villains in a feature film can be killed off as another can take its place. The villains can be memorable. Trying to come up with 12 new villains each year to sustain publishing a comic book is a tough ask, eg over a decade that is 120 new villains. So writers "cheated" and let the villains "go" so they could return later, thus cutting down the burden of creating so many new villains for the heroes to defeat.

 

Basically the trope of returning villains was created as a necessity of publishing so many issues of a title with a feature character. Films don't have this issue (pardon the pun).

[zslane]

The demands & publishing aims are different between a feature cinematic film and a monthly comic book. The film realistically will be produced a limited number of times, eg a trilogy. A monthly comic book needs 12 issues a year in perpetuity.

Thus: villains in a feature film can be killed off as another can take its place. The villains can be memorable. Trying to come up with 12 new villains each year to sustain publishing a comic book is a tough ask, eg over a decade that is 120 new villains. So writers "cheated" and let the villains "go" so they could return later, thus cutting down the burden of creating so many new villains for the heroes to defeat.

Basically the trope of returning villains was created as a necessity of publishing so many issues of a title with a feature character. Films don't have this issue (pardon the pun).

Yes, I know all that. But why is killing them so necessary? Regardless of how many villains you need for your filmic milieux, there is no good reason to kill the ones you don't intend to reuse. The idea that death is a common risk associated with being a superhero or supervillain is simply not part of the genre conventions.

 

I agree with CT that the reason these basic genre conventions are disregarded is that Disney/Marvel mistakenly believes that they are (and/or should be) making conventional action movies albeit with a fantastical element, rather than superhero movies.

[Greywind]

Gabe Jones: Who are you supposed to be?

Steve Rogers: I'm... Captain America.

[Steve walks off to free the soldiers trapped below]

James Montgomery Falsworth: I beg your pardon?

 

 

Steve Rogers: You ready to follow Captain America into the jaws of death?

James 'Bucky' Barnes: Hell, no! The little guy from Brooklyn who was too dumb not to run away from a fight. I'm following him.

[Smiles]

James 'Bucky' Barnes: But you're keeping the outfit, right?

Steve Rogers: You know what? It's kinda grown on me.

 

 

Johann Schmidt: Captain America! How exciting! I'm a great fan of your films!

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

 The film realistically will be produced a limited number of times, eg a trilogy. A monthly comic book needs 12 issues a year in perpetuity. 

 

Thus: villains in a feature film can be killed off as another can take its place.

 

Sure, but you know what a big part of what made Star Wars work so well?  Darth Vader coming back.  You know a large part of what made the prequels suck?  Killing the most interesting bad guy in the first film.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, I know all that. But why is killing them so necessary? Regardless of how many villains you need for your filmic milieux, there is no good reason to kill the ones you don't intend to reuse. The idea that death is a common risk associated with being a superhero or supervillain is simply not part of the genre conventions.

This. Quote the realism of violent combat all you want, but then why do we not have more dead heroes? When Falcon`s wings are torn off, he does not fall to his death. Rhodey survives the fall in CW and will no doubt be back in time. Have we lost any Superheroes other than Quicksilver to match all those dead villains?

[Cassandra]

This. Quote the realism of violent combat all you want, but then why do we not have more dead heroes? When Falcon`s wings are torn off, he does not fall to his death. Rhodey survives the fall in CW and will no doubt be back in time. Have we lost any Superheroes other than Quicksilver to match all those dead villains?

 

The Supervillains knew the job was dangerous when they took it.