Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Cygnia]

Seen elsewhere online

 

Quote

Somewhere in England, there's a local production of "The Pirates of Penzance" throwing an extra line into the Major General song.

"I know all sorts of facts both wonderful and sinister. I even know how short a time Liz Truss was Prime Minister."

 

[Old Man]

20 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

That hasn't been reported in my usual media sources (though I find it sadly plausible). Could you tell more about this, please?

 

The Congressional Progressive Caucus yesterday released a statement calling for a diplomatic solution to the war.  It was perceived as undercutting support for Ukraine and the backlash was strong enough that they retracted it today.

 

Last week the House GOP leader made a statement that, if the GOP takes one or both houses of Congress, there will be strings attached to future support for Ukraine--if there is any support at all.   "There will be no 'blank check'", etc.  There was zero backlash from his party or GOP voters, nor from the conservative media that have been openly pro-Russia from the very beginning.

[Iuz the Evil]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

 

The Congressional Progressive Caucus yesterday released a statement calling for a diplomatic solution to the war.  It was perceived as undercutting support for Ukraine and the backlash was strong enough that they retracted it today.

 

Last week the House GOP leader made a statement that, if the GOP takes one or both houses of Congress, there will be strings attached to future support for Ukraine--if there is any support at all.   "There will be no 'blank check'", etc.  There was zero backlash from his party or GOP voters, nor from the conservative media that have been openly pro-Russia from the very beginning.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/maddow/blog/rcna53666

 

Not entirely accurate, there’s definitely conflict in the GOP on that statement by McCarthy (notably from well known GOP asshat McConnell).

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/maddow/blog/rcna53666

 

Not entirely accurate, there’s definitely conflict in the GOP on that statement by McCarthy (notably from well known GOP asshat McConnell).

 

I listened to an online commentator who pointed out that McConnell tends to take the long view politically. In the future, as technology moves us away from fossil fuels while global warming starts changing our environment, wars won't be fought over oil, but over food. Russia and Ukraine are two of the world's biggest grain producers, but Russia is hostile to the West and looks to be heading for failed-state status, while Ukraine is a Western-friendly democracy which will probably emerge from this conflict as the strongest state in Eastern Europe. It's in America's long-term interest to stay on Ukraine's good side.

 

4 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Seen elsewhere online

 

 

 

Many years ago I saw a stage production of Pirates of Penzance at Stratford, Ontario, which inserted nearly the same line using the name of a recent short-term Canadian Prime Minister. I suspect that's been done many times in various countries over the past 140 years.

[Iuz the Evil]

47 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I listened to an online commentator who pointed out that McConnell tends to take the long view politically. In the future, as technology moves us away from fossil fuels while global warming starts changing our environment, wars won't be fought over oil, but over food. Russia and Ukraine are two of the world's biggest grain producers, but Russia is hostile to the West and looks to be heading for failed-state status, while Ukraine is a Western-friendly democracy which will probably emerge from this conflict as the strongest state in Eastern Europe. It's in America's long-term interest to stay on Ukraine's good side.

All of that, and Kentucky has Lockheed Martin, BAE, Northrop Grumman, and a Department of Defense hub. Mitch is all about military spending, this philosophically aligns with his decades long approach, and it’s certainly in our national security interest. I don’t see him bailing on that issue.

[Pattern Ghost]

We really don't need boots on the ground to end this. Ukraine can supply that, since they're the defenders. What we need is to use our massive air power advantage to obliterate anything Russia attempts to throw at Ukraine. But we won't do it, because Russia might have functioning nukes. (Note the "functioning" qualifier: they haven't shown much of a penchant for equipment maintenance.)

 

I strongly suspect that Russia would fold under direct military intervention from the US, but I'm not so sure they wouldn't start something nuclear in retaliation. The whole situation reminds me of the old Sid Meier's Civilization (first version) video game, where once a country had nukes, every diplomatic interaction ended in "Our words are backed by nuclear weapons!"

 

 

[Iuz the Evil]

6 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

We really don't need boots on the ground to end this. Ukraine can supply that, since they're the defenders. What we need is to use our massive air power advantage to obliterate anything Russia attempts to throw at Ukraine. But we won't do it, because Russia might have functioning nukes. (Note the "functioning" qualifier: they haven't shown much of a penchant for equipment maintenance.)

 

I strongly suspect that Russia would fold under direct military intervention from the US, but I'm not so sure they wouldn't start something nuclear in retaliation. The whole situation reminds me of the old Sid Meier's Civilization (first version) video game, where once a country had nukes, every diplomatic interaction ended in "Our words are backed by nuclear weapons!"

 

 

I think direct boots on the ground military intervention is a terrible idea. This is an almost perfect opportunity for a proxy war, and the Ukrainians are not only willing they’re grateful for the opportunity. And I do not see any wavering in their resolution, nor has Russia given them any reason to show a lack of resolve (quite the contrary - targeting civilians, bombing infrastructure and engaging in terror tactics only makes the locals hate you more).

 

I am thinking if we stop providing the conventional weaponry, the Ukrainians are likely to continue their resistance. Not sure why we think we’d get a vote on their national integrity, after all. But it’ll get a lot worse without Western backing for the defenders, and easier for Russia. No idea why we’d want that.

[Lord Liaden]

19 minutes ago, Iuz the Evil said:

I am thinking if we stop providing the conventional weaponry, the Ukrainians are likely to continue their resistance. Not sure why we think we’d get a vote on their national integrity, after all. But it’ll get a lot worse without Western backing for the defenders, and easier for Russia. No idea why we’d want that.

 

Quite a few people on the Right in the US today, especially among politicians and media pundits, appear enamored with Putin's Russia. I get the impression that his dictatorial style, alliance with big business and religion, and disdain for non-Russian ethnic groups, homosexuals, the rural poor, and other marginalized people, are things they want to see translated to America.

[Iuz the Evil]

2 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Quite a few people on the Right in the US today, especially among politicians and media pundits, appear enamored with Putin's Russia. I get the impression that his dictatorial style, alliance with big business and religion, and disdain for non-Russian ethnic groups, homosexuals, the rural poor, and other marginalized people, are things they want to see translated to America.

Definitely some of that going on, reminds me of Lindbergh and other pro Fascism elements during WW2. I would not overestimate the devotion those folks have to Putin personally though, any foreign dictator will do. I believe Ergodan is their latest fetish, and while he’s playing this for personal gain and is certainly personally detestable, he’s on the side of NATO in this one.

 

 I don’t count on the Republican even in foreign intervention these days to pick the right side. I do expect the Democrats to do so, thereby affirming my choice to vote for them. The other guys have lost that.

[DShomshak]

All Things Considered aired a story about the Progressive Caucus letter and Rep. Pramilla Jaipaul's swift retra ction of it, with some mumbling that a staffer had sent the letter before it was "vetted." Um, OK.

 

From the description, it sounds like high-minded dithering by very nice people. Negotiate directly with Russia. But wait, we aren't saying to leave Ukraine out. Oh please, can't  we have a diplomatic solution instead of this nasty war?

 

No. At this point, I don't think we (that is, civilized humanity) can, unless the resolution involves Russia renouncing all claims to any Ukrainian territory, including the Crimea, and returning all the kidnapped Ukrainians. Once those concessions are made, the diplomats can go to work. Until then, let Russia reap the disaster it has sown and choke on its own banquet of horrors.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

All of that, and Kentucky has Lockheed Martin, BAE, Northrop Grumman, and a Department of Defense hub. Mitch is all about military spending, this philosophically aligns with his decades long approach, and it’s certainly in our national security interest. I don’t see him bailing on that issue.

 

A couple of weeks ago I came to the realization that we can ship trainloads of cash to the MIC without any of it getting to Ukraine.  And I expect that this is what will happen if the GOP gets hold of either house of Congress in January.

[Iuz the Evil]

20 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

A couple of weeks ago I came to the realization that we can ship trainloads of cash to the MIC without any of it getting to Ukraine.  And I expect that this is what will happen if the GOP gets hold of either house of Congress in January.

That’s possible, I’m sure there’s plenty of funding not getting where it’s going right now for “reasons”. The MIC gets theirs no matter what. We do have plenty of evidence currently about the effectiveness of HIMARS and other newer generation weaponry though, so some of it is getting through. Maybe half? Less?

 

I can live with that for the same reason I don’t get worked up around various climate change investments that fail to bear fruit. Price of progress and I care about the policy being advanced. 
 

I’d cheerfully endorse another $50 billion in aid. Russia is an aggressor state with nuclear weapons and sponsor of state terror. Basically the bogeyman that we’ve been making out middle eastern nations to be for decades, but for real. Thwarting their ambitions is imperative. While we bicker about internal politics, however important the subjects, they’re actually engaged in mass murder on an international scale. 
 

It’s my most important current international issue. Global warming is right up there, but that’s harder to solve with munitions. This plays to our strengths, so solve the problem already and give ‘em the tools to defend themselves.

 

edit: and in todays “<expletive> around and find out” an Iranian colonel who was reportedly supplying drones to the Russians got assassinated. Guess the Israelis or we didn’t care for that. Can’t provide the link because graphic images. Here’s a different one: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/iran-death-irgc-colonel-raises-eyebrows/31882315.html

 

Could be unrelated, lots of unrest in Iran right now.

[BNakagawa]

well, Israel wasn't willing to supply Iron Dome defense systems, but they were willing to do something else a little further up the supply chain...

 

 

 

 

...allegedly.

[csyphrett]

Just found out that man of the people Ted Budd is a multimillionaire who partially owns the Budd Group here in town and I am so glad to vote against him on Friday. This guy is a swamp thing.

CES  

[Pattern Ghost]

5 hours ago, DShomshak said:

All Things Considered aired a story about the Progressive Caucus letter and Rep. Pramilla Jaipaul's swift retra ction of it, with some mumbling that a staffer had sent the letter before it was "vetted." Um, OK.

 

If the staffer's initials were P.J., then I believe her.

[unclevlad]

While we like to blame The Donald as, at least, being the point man for encouraging divisiveness...there's this story:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/holocaust-museum-of-la-flooded-with-antisemitic-messages-after-offering-kanye-west-a-private-tour/

 

Quote

"I think Kanye has more than double the amount of Twitter followers than there are Jews living in this world," Kean said. "People like Kanye have a huge platform, he has over 30 million Twitter followers and he needs to understand that he needs to use his words to inspire and not incite and to not perpetuate hate and lies and an antisemitism."   

Experts believe the artist's actions have invigorated more antisemitic behavior including a stunt on the 405 freeway. On Saturday, a group of people flew a banner that stated "Kanye was right about the Jews," while also displaying Nazi salutes. 

 

 

[Cygnia]

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/10/26/jury-convicts-3-men-of-supporting-terrorists-in-whitmer-kidnap-plot/69590174007/

 

Quote

Jackson — Three men have been found guilty by a Jackson County jury of materially aiding a terrorist and being a member of a gang.

This verdict comes after a three-week trial where the Michigan Attorney General's Office had to prove that Paul Bellar, Joseph Morrison and Pete Musico provided aid to Adam Fox or Barry Croft, both of whom were ringleaders in the plot to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer. Jurors have spent two weeks listening to each side present testimony in the largest domestic terrorism case in a generation that has shed light on political extremism in Michigan.

 

[Iuz the Evil]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/politics/kevin-mccarthy-house-gop-ukraine-funding-blank-check/index.html
 

Good. It’s nice to see them manage their own (for a change).

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/politics/kevin-mccarthy-house-gop-ukraine-funding-blank-check/index.html
 

Good. It’s nice to see them manage their own (for a change).

 

McCarthy has frequently demonstrated that he'll say anything he thinks will please his voters at the moment, without thinking through the bigger implications or how the party leadership will react. Reminds me of the character of Jim Hacker from the BBC's classic satirical series, Yes, Prime Minister: "I am the people's leader! I must follow them!"

[unclevlad]

I agree with LL.  McCarthy's a weasel, saying whatever it takes to satisfy his constituency of the moment...here, of course, it's the rest of the House Republican Caucus.

[Ternaugh]

54,546 people have voted in the first five days of early voting here in Clark County, NV.

 

Meanwhile, in Nye County, NV, the county commissioners have decided to perform a full hand count of ballots because of voting machine conspiracy theories, and they've started early to avoid missing the November 17 certification deadline. It's not going well: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/nevada-officials-begin-unprecedented-hand-count-ballots-rcna54338

 

Nye County has around 33,000 registered voters, and the article noted that it took 60 people to count (and apparently, recount) 900 ballots by hand on the first day. Clark County has about 1.3 million registered voters, Washoe County (Reno) has about 300,000 voters, and as the article notes:

 

Quote

The Republican’s nominee for secretary of state, Jim Marchant, said he wants to spread hand-counting to every county. In March, he said he would try to have the state’s 15 rural counties adopt hand-counting, then “force Clark and Washoe” — home to Las Vegas and Reno — to do so.

Marchant has repeated unsubstantiated election claims and told audiences that elections are corrupt.

 

 

 

[Old Man]

People in Nye County can't count more than 15 ballots per day?  Is counting taught in the schools there?

 

Also, by the Law of Republican Projection, if this guy is saying elections are corrupt, then his counting effort deserves some serious scrutiny.

[unclevlad]

The fallout from Kanye's self-destructive comment continues.  He ran a 'school'...a private, non-accredited academy, where parents had to sign NDAs.  Little or nothing known about its internal workings...like what it might even be teaching.  Huh...suspicious, much?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/oct/27/kanye-west-donda-academy-school-closes

 

Points:  

--the school had invites to some basketball tournaments rescinded...these tend to be all-star type events, almost up there with Nike or Adidas summer camps for recruits.  

--another story says at least one faculty member resigned, on the basis of refusing to continue associating with West

--he's bleeding sponsors and partners faster than Robert Sarver and the Suns

 

The school itself has shut down for the year.  They claim he's planning to reopen next year...but we'll see.  Maybe this remark might become defused, but...it's inconceivable he won't make more.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

People in Nye County can't count more than 15 ballots per day?  Is counting taught in the schools there?

 

Also, by the Law of Republican Projection, if this guy is saying elections are corrupt, then his counting effort deserves some serious scrutiny.

 

Probably not. While the numbers for Nevada in general aren't good, 

 

Quote

Public Schools in Nye County School District have an average math proficiency score of 27% (versus the Nevada public school average of 36%), and reading proficiency score of 39% (versus the 48% statewide average).

 

(From https://www.publicschoolreview.com/nevada/nye-county-school-district/3200360-school-district )

 

[Cygnia]

...what is happening to this country?!

 

Paul Pelosi, speaker’s husband, beaten with hammer at home

Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — Paul Pelosi, the husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, was attacked and severely beaten by an assailant with a hammer who broke into their San Francisco home, according to people familiar with the matter.

Pelosi, 82, suffered blunt force trauma to his head and body, according to two people with knowledge of the investigation into the attack who spoke to The Associated Press on Friday on the condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing probe. He was being treated by doctors for bruising, severe swelling and other injuries. Pelosi’s spokesman Drew Hammill said he was expected to make a full recovery.

The assailant is in custody, and the motivation for the attack is under investigation, the spokesman said.