Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[ScottishFox]

16 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Just out of curiosity, what mainstream ideas would you prioritize?

 

I'd like to see us get out of pointless trillion dollar foreign wars and campaigns.

 

Ideas I'd like to see Democrats address Healthcare costs in a reasonable fashion.  Promising "free" healthcare to people who aren't even citizens while millions of Americans aren't covered is an election losing idea.

But doing something to increase the number of doctors able to get through medical school without $500k in student debt would be a good start.

Also, the idea that eyeballs and teeth shouldn't be covered by health insurance is asinine.

 

I'd like to see pharmaceutical companies forced to see their drugs in America at the same price they sell them everywhere else.  The idea that you can get a massive discount on your insulin by crossing the border, but are legally barred from importing it, is BS.

 

I'd like to see social security income go back to being non-taxable as seniors can't even begin to pay for healthcare with the pittance they get from social security.

[Hermit]

White House accidentally sends email to Democrats

 

In the hours after the release Wednesday of the rough transcript of President Trump’s July phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, the White House circulated an email with proposed talking points for Trump’s defenders.

[L. Marcus]

Just ... the level of competence in your current administration ...

[Hermit]

24 minutes ago, L. Marcus said:

Just ... the level of competence in your current administration ...

 

I'd like to think situations like this were how the early mathematicians proved the existence of negative numbers 

[Sociotard]

What shocks me is . . . his lies are working!

 

He went straight from "Do you think I'm stupid enough to do that on a line I know is listened on?" to "Of course I did that and it is right and proper and Biden's corruption is the real story."

 

And it worked!

 

I just checked some conservative forums.  They bought both lines completely! At this moment I am looking at one lauding Trump for playing the game like a master, drawing Pelosi into his trap, forcing Hunter Biden to front page news.

 

If I were GMing this, that second spin, that it was good to do quid pro quo (after lying and saying it was all fake news) would be at least a -4 on Persuasion, maybe -6. And it worked!

 

So yeah, either the guy is just rolling 3s or he has an amazing Persuasion score.

 

And thus is Competent. 

[csyphrett]

8 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

What shocks me is . . . his lies are working!

 

He went straight from "Do you think I'm stupid enough to do that on a line I know is listened on?" to "Of course I did that and it is right and proper and Biden's corruption is the real story."

 

And it worked!

 

I just checked some conservative forums.  They bought both lines completely! At this moment I am looking at one lauding Trump for playing the game like a master, drawing Pelosi into his trap, forcing Hunter Biden to front page news.

 

If I were GMing this, that second spin, that it was good to do quid pro quo (after lying and saying it was all fake news) would be at least a -4 on Persuasion, maybe -6. And it worked!

 

So yeah, either the guy is just rolling 3s or he has an amazing Persuasion score.

 

And thus is Competent. 

Either that, or the people who believe him are stupid. I know some of those people personally. and they are blind to reality as far as politics go, with a side helping of conspiracy theory and  personal problems

CES

[Ternaugh]

10 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

What shocks me is . . . his lies are working!

 

He went straight from "Do you think I'm stupid enough to do that on a line I know is listened on?" to "Of course I did that and it is right and proper and Biden's corruption is the real story."

 

And it worked!

 

I just checked some conservative forums.  They bought both lines completely! At this moment I am looking at one lauding Trump for playing the game like a master, drawing Pelosi into his trap, forcing Hunter Biden to front page news.

 

If I were GMing this, that second spin, that it was good to do quid pro quo (after lying and saying it was all fake news) would be at least a -4 on Persuasion, maybe -6. And it worked!

 

So yeah, either the guy is just rolling 3s or he has an amazing Persuasion score.

 

And thus is Competent. 

 

To be fair, there may be a fair number of people in those forums who took Psych Lim: Gullible.

[Old Man]

That's because a fair number of all people took that lim.  Only it reads "Psych Lim: Greatly prefers facts that reinforce preexisting worldview".

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

White House accidentally sends email to Democrats

 

In the hours after the release Wednesday of the rough transcript of President Trump’s July phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, the White House circulated an email with proposed talking points for Trump’s defenders.

 

"Accidentally"

[ScottishFox]

45 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

"Accidentally"

 

This would be my concern.

 

Trump has the media chasing his lies like a kitten after a laser pointer dot.

 

He pushed in pretty major policy and procedure changes and they never got above the horizon on most news sites because everyone was outraged over sharpie-gate and other nonsensical things he does.

[Hermit]

Oh I can see a lot of ways this could backfire on the democrats, but I think at this stage they kind of have to at least do the inquiry or the checks and balances in our government, let alone the laws, mean nothing.

[DShomshak]

I heard the first 20 minutes or so of Trump's news conference and mostly I ws left thinking: Wow, what a crybaby. Nuthin' but "I'm so great, I didn't do anything wrong, why is the press saying mean things about me, it's all a Democratic plot, wah wah wah." This is the hero of Conservative Real Americans? The one who sells himself as the Tough Guy, whom they worship because he fights for them?

 

If Trump speaks to how they feel, well, that's discouraging in its own way.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Hermit]

11 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

I heard the first 20 minutes or so of Trump's news conference and mostly I ws left thinking: Wow, what a crybaby. Nuthin' but "I'm so great, I didn't do anything wrong, why is the press saying mean things about me, it's all a Democratic plot, wah wah wah." This is the hero of Conservative Real Americans? The one who sells himself as the Tough Guy, whom they worship because he fights for them?

 

If Trump speaks to how they feel, well, that's discouraging in its own way.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I'm pretty sure at this point anywhere from 15 to 35 percent of the Amercian voters will refuse to believe anything negative about him. They've bound their self image and identity too firmly into Trump. 

I just hope its closer to 15%

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

I heard the first 20 minutes or so of Trump's news conference and mostly I ws left thinking: Wow, what a crybaby. Nuthin' but "I'm so great, I didn't do anything wrong, why is the press saying mean things about me, it's all a Democratic plot, wah wah wah." This is the hero of Conservative Real Americans? The one who sells himself as the Tough Guy, whom they worship because he fights for them?

 

If Trump speaks to how they feel, well, that's discouraging in its own way.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I believe he does speak to how they feel. His white male supporters were used to considering themselves the top of the heap. Now they have to fight for their place along with everyone else, and they don't like it. They feel they shouldn't have to, because they're the "true Americans."

 

Archie Bunker can see George Jefferson closing in in his rear-view mirror. Only today it's not so much George as Jorge.

[TheDarkness]

Currently listening to an ebook about LBJ's presidency, I am about as far from an LBJ fan as you could get, but man, man the difference in competence level from him to our current leader is staggering, he was a master at getting things done.

 

The only reason Trump has got anything done is because the GOP senate, in lockstep with the party, has done it for him. We can argue the value of those actions, just not sure how long the party thinks costly wars and tax cuts go together like fish and white wine.

[megaplayboy]

I don't think he's all that persuasive.  He's not convincing anyone outside his hardcore base of supporters, and those Republican pols openly supporting him are doing so out of fear or for self-serving reasons.  

[Lord Liaden]

I remember when I was in graduate school, having an instructor who was a German immigrant, and a teenager when the Nazis came to power. He said he used to listen to Hitler's speeches on the radio, and thought them compelling and inspirational; but when listening to recordings of them decades later, they sounded to him like rambling, incoherent nonsense.

 

Listening is an active function -- to a large extent we hear what we want to hear. We can learn to hear with a more critical and dispassionate ear, but never completely escape our subjectivity. Donald Trump isn't smart, knowledgeable, or articulate, but he has a grifter's instinct for where people are vulnerable and exploitable. He found such a niche in the American public consciousness, and continues to sell that fraction of Americans what they're already inclined to believe.

 

One day, with time and distance, many of them will realize they were conned; but for others their egos will never let them admit it.

[Old Man]

59 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

One day, with time and distance, many of them will realize they were conned; but for others their egos will never let them admit it.

 

This is the hard part.  I used to vote Republican (sometimes) back before I realized that "low taxes" and "fiscal conservatism" and "trickle down economics" weren't cynical lies.  Similarly, on race, the GOP has convinced their base that CEOs giving their jobs to minorities and illegals is somehow the fault of the minorities and illegals.  And so on.  I don't think I really figured this out until 2003 or so, to my everlasting shame.  It was a tough realization.

[TrickstaPriest]

2 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

This is the hard part.  I used to vote Republican (sometimes) back before I realized that "low taxes" and "fiscal conservatism" and "trickle down economics" weren't cynical lies.  Similarly, on race, the GOP has convinced their base that CEOs giving their jobs to minorities and illegals is somehow the fault of the minorities and illegals.  And so on.  I don't think I really figured this out until 2003 or so, to my everlasting shame.  It was a tough realization.

 

Not sure when I realized that the Democratic party was never going to do anything serious about global warming.  That was my own, shall we say, moment of despair.

[Old Man]

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

I'd like to see us get out of pointless trillion dollar foreign wars and campaigns.

 

So would everyone.  Every Democratic presidential candidate is on record as intending to end the war in Afghanistan, for instance.

 

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

Ideas I'd like to see Democrats address Healthcare costs in a reasonable fashion.  Promising "free" healthcare to people who aren't even citizens while millions of Americans aren't covered is an election losing idea.

 

I'm unaware of any Democratic proposal to provide free healthcare to illegal immigrants.  Every candidate has proposed at least a public option, though as I see it nothing short of universal healthcare (for citizens) will really begin to fix the healthcare system in the US.

 

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

But doing something to increase the number of doctors able to get through medical school without $500k in student debt would be a good start.

 

Virtually every Democratic candidate has proposed some kind of student loan forgiveness and/or free public college tuition.

 

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

Also, the idea that eyeballs and teeth shouldn't be covered by health insurance is asinine.

 

Thank heavnes it's not just me.

 

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

I'd like to see pharmaceutical companies forced to see their drugs in America at the same price they sell them everywhere else.  The idea that you can get a massive discount on your insulin by crossing the border, but are legally barred from importing it, is BS.

 

The best way to enforce this is universal healthcare, which would create a healthcare provider with enough clout to negotiate better pricing.

 

 

12 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

I'd like to see social security income go back to being non-taxable as seniors can't even begin to pay for healthcare with the pittance they get from social security.

 

Agreed.  I haven't seen any candidate propose this specifically (oddly enough) but many Democratic candidates (Sanders and Warren in particular) have made proposals to increase benefits at the expense of the wealthy.

 

(Sorry it took so long to get back to this; I knew it was going to be a relatively long post, and I have to work it in between new jobs and barfing kids.)

 

[Old Man]

7 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

Not sure when I realized that the Democratic party was never going to do anything serious about global warming.  That was my own, shall we say, moment of despair.

 

I'm not sure which Democratic party you're talking about; literally every Democratic presidential candidate except Biden and Gabbard has signed on to some variant of the Green New Deal.  Regardless, it is infinitely more likely that a Democratic president will do something serious about the climate crisis, as the GOP (and their corporate supporters) are still actively spreading climate denialism.

[Old Man]

The latest development in the Ukraine quid pro quo story is that Trump has directly implicated Pence in the scandal.  The strategy, no doubt, is that by including the VP, any vote to remove Trump will also force the removal of Pence and lead to a president Pelosi.  Thus making removal less likely.

[TrickstaPriest]

46 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

I'm not sure which Democratic party you're talking about; literally every Democratic presidential candidate except Biden and Gabbard has signed on to some variant of the Green New Deal.  Regardless, it is infinitely more likely that a Democratic president will do something serious about the climate crisis, as the GOP (and their corporate supporters) are still actively spreading climate denialism.

 

Oh I don't disagree with you there.  I loathe that climate denialism more than I can ever, possibly describe.  I would have to get into nanoangstrom's and micro instants.

 

But this is the first round of politics I've actually heard positive, actual planning that I believe might do something.  It's just been so much drek and not-even trying.

[megaplayboy]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

The latest development in the Ukraine quid pro quo story is that Trump has directly implicated Pence in the scandal.  The strategy, no doubt, is that by including the VP, any vote to remove Trump will also force the removal of Pence and lead to a president Pelosi.  Thus making removal less likely.

Trump seeking foreign interference in the 2020 election forced the Democrats' hand.  No way they can let that stand.  

[Lord Liaden]

The chance is vanishingly small the GOP-controlled Senate would ever put Trump on trial, short of recorded evidence of him personally murdering someone. The Dems are aware of this. I believe the impeachment procedure is to show their own base that the party won't let such egregious behavior stand without doing what's right and fulfilling their Constitutional duty. Anything less could cost them the voters they need in 2020.