Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pariah]

Yeah, the average American isn't interested in renewable energy when gasoline is selling at $1.75 a gallon.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

7 minutes ago, Pariah said:

Yeah, the average American isn't interested in renewable energy when gasoline is selling at $1.75 a gallon.

 

True, but that's just one example. Americans in general are extraordinarily resistant to change, especially if it involves altering their belief systems...even if it's only a little bit.

 

[Pariah]

That's only because we're always right.

[L. Marcus]

... Ow, my sides.

[Lord Liaden]

I keep reading/hearing, "people/Americans are ____," like current trends and attitudes are universal and constant. Americans can profoundly change their thinking, because they have. Where was America before the civil rights movement? Where was America before the New Deal? But those things took effort, they took time and persistence, weathering setbacks and disappointment and suffering. And it took those who saw the need for change to keep pushing the rest into recognizing it.

 

What I hear and read now is a lot more people saying that this pandemic has made them aware of the flaws in our systems and how they need to be changed. It's also made it much harder for those who oppose change to hide their real motives. Of course there's no guarantee that substantive action will result from it, but there's never been more fertile ground for progressive thought to grow.

[Ragitsu]

21 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I keep reading/hearing, "people/Americans are ____," like current trends and attitudes are universal and constant. Americans can profoundly change their thinking, because they have. Where was America before the civil rights movement? Where was America before the New Deal? But those things took effort, they took time and persistence, weathering setbacks and disappointment and suffering. And it took those who saw the need for change to keep pushing the rest into recognizing it.

 

There is one key difference in the present, Liaden: a rather large game changer called "The Internet". Unlike any preceding era, we now have a wealth of information at our fingertips no matter where we go (okay, barring certain nations that clamp down on unrestricted access, but other than them...). Despite the prevalence of ignorance and bountiful supply of snake oil you can find on the Wild Web, an individual can also easily dispel historical inaccuracies that have accrued in their mental storehouse and learn that there are indeed better ways to go about organizing this little thing we call civilization. It is also far more difficult to dehumanize entire cultures when you can see that every corner of the world had its ups and downs: morally, ethically, economically, spiritually, etc. Additionally, it is challenging for the powerful to walk back their stupidity/foolishness/bigotry when their words are instantly spread out to a multitude of websites.

 

We know that the status quo isn't desirable. We feel anger towards those that want to pretend that the pace of change must be stuck at a level of 1776 and raised no further.

[ScottishFox]

32 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I keep reading/hearing, "people/Americans are ____," like current trends and attitudes are universal and constant. Americans can profoundly change their thinking, because they have.

 

America-bashing is a time-honored sport.  Frequently favored by those who diminish the problems of their own country.

America is no utopia, but it has gotten better and in a pretty short time frame relative to many countries.

 

I've had multiple friends from foreign countries over the years and the one consistent feature is that they're shocked how different we are from our horrible international reputations.

Except for the fat part, because that is largely true.

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

Except for the fat part, because that is largely true.

 

Fat, because:

 

We are overworked and often have to subsist on cheap food which is nutritionally deficient (but quite easy to prepare or snag at a drive-through). Why are we overworked? That's another topic unto itself. Also, we often purchase said cheap food because of the effectiveness of advertising (thank you, lax advertising laws and the unmitigated targeting of children...both of which are perfectly "legal"). Furthermore, food which is cheap is often loaded with preservatives and substandard ingredients that manufacturers are free to include because, again, it is quite legal.

 

Generally speaking, a frugal shopper can save quite a bit of money by obtaining healthier ingredients, but, a cultural issue rears its head: we aren't motivated - from an early age - to view fast food and junk food as luxuries...they are insidiously pushed as near-staples. This isn't a matter of "We're fat because we're fat." There were and are a host of societal weaknesses* that lead us to this obesity epidemic. On the other hand, if you do become fat, at least you have a top notch healthcare network to fall back on no matter where you travel...right?

 

* Political corruption and a capitalist system with far too much elbow room at the top are chief among them.

[Ragitsu]

I should also note that, because of our large population of people with undiagnosed or untreated mental illness, some of them are likely to be depressed and resort to emotional eating to cope with a distressing perception of reality. Surely that can't cause weight gain...

[megaplayboy]

41 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

There is one key difference in the present, Liaden: a rather large game changer called "The Internet". Unlike any preceding era, we now have a wealth of information at our fingertips no matter where we go (okay, barring certain nations that clamp down on unrestricted access, but other than them...). Despite the prevalence of ignorance and bountiful supply of snake oil you can find on the Wild Web, an individual can also easily dispel historical inaccuracies that have accrued in their mental storehouse and learn that there are indeed better ways to go about organizing this little thing we call civilization. It is also far more difficult to dehumanize entire cultures when you can see that every corner of the world had its ups and downs: morally, ethically, economically, spiritually, etc. Additionally, it is challenging for the powerful to walk back their stupidity/foolishness/bigotry when their words are instantly spread out to a multitude of websites.

 

We know that the status quo isn't desirable. We feel anger towards those that want to pretend that the pace of change must be stuck at a level of 1776 and raised no further.

Ironically, the pace of change in 1776 was rather swift--we rebelled against a monarchy, set up an imperfect confederation, then drafted a constitution, with a bill of rights, all within a couple decades.  

That being said, when half the political establishment is dead set on going backwards in many ways, sometimes incremental forward progress is the best that can be managed in the short term.  All it will take, though, to break this logjam is a shift of a few percentage points in net political and policy preferences.  That could happen due to demographic changes, that could happen by younger voters becoming more engaged, or it could happen by attitudinal changes among the existing electoral base.  We might see evidence of the latter in this coming election.  

[Dr. MID-Nite]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I keep reading/hearing, "people/Americans are ____," like current trends and attitudes are universal and constant. Americans can profoundly change their thinking, because they have. Where was America before the civil rights movement? Where was America before the New Deal? But those things took effort, they took time and persistence, weathering setbacks and disappointment and suffering. And it took those who saw the need for change to keep pushing the rest into recognizing it.

 

What I hear and read now is a lot more people saying that this pandemic has made them aware of the flaws in our systems and how they need to be changed. It's also made it much harder for those who oppose change to hide their real motives. Of course there's no guarantee that substantive action will result from it, but there's never been more fertile ground for progressive thought to grow.

 

Yes. My choice of words is perhaps a little too arbitrary. I'll be more thoughtful going forward. You do bring up the cause of my frustration though. I've been pushing for some progressive ideas my entire life and have seen instead mostly the opposite happen….which just enrages me. 

[Old Man]

New York poison control center sees spike in calls after controversial Trump comments

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

There is one key difference in the present, Liaden: a rather large game changer called "The Internet". Unlike any preceding era, we now have a wealth of information at our fingertips no matter where we go (okay, barring certain nations that clamp down on unrestricted access, but other than them...). Despite the prevalence of ignorance and bountiful supply of snake oil you can find on the Wild Web, an individual can also easily dispel historical inaccuracies that have accrued in their mental storehouse and learn that there are indeed better ways to go about organizing this little thing we call civilization. It is also far more difficult to dehumanize entire cultures when you can see that every corner of the world had its ups and downs: morally, ethically, economically, spiritually, etc. Additionally, it is challenging for the powerful to walk back their stupidity/foolishness/bigotry when their words are instantly spread out to a multitude of websites.

 

We know that the status quo isn't desirable. We feel anger towards those that want to pretend that the pace of change must be stuck at a level of 1776 and raised no further.

 

You raise a valid point, in that with the Internet we can know, if we choose to look and learn. That was the dream of the Web's creators -- ready universal access to knowledge, open communication among all parties. But in those early days no one anticipated another phenomenon that has become widespread -- the creation of Internet bubbles made up of people with the same opinions and biases, perpetuating the narrative of what they want to be true while excluding alternative views, filtering all information and news through their preconceptions. Those bubbles have become a refuge for the great many people who don't want the discomfort of challenge to their prejudices, and a tool for those who want to spread fear and hatred to advance their own interests.

 

Like so many of our powerful inventions, the Internet has changed society both for the better and for the worse.

[Ragitsu]

5 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Like so many of our powerful inventions, the Internet has changed society both for the better and for the worse.

 

I would argue that it has been far more of a boon than a bane. Yes, comfortable ponds have been traded for convenient bubbles, but those same bubbles are now in a stream and therefore never completely safe from being ruptured. Anyhow...my point was that some of this increasing agitation you might have picked up on is thanks to the greater ability the individual now has to self-educate.

[Lord Liaden]

*Shrug* We had plenty of agitation at numerous periods in the past without it. My inclination is to give more credit to prevailing mood and circumstances. But your position is logical, and I'm not in a position to refute it.

[Badger]

I probably am one of those that tends to reflexively go against change.  In general, life experience has taught to go by the Lando Calrissian principle.   AKA this deal is getting worse all the time.  Sometimes, I feel progressivism's philosophy is to leap and ask if somebody put water in the pool mid-jump.  

 

Ok, really more a general observation on life than actual a true dig into politics.  But, changing things has taught me  that is often high risk, unknown*, if any reward.  I'm too cynical, for that anymore.  Just that sometimes change is sometimes painted as much too rosy than reality (and much too darker than reality too, on the flip side)

 

*There is always some factor not calculated in that lessened that theoretical reward.  well, at least, I cant think of a single time, in my own experience, for that not to be the case.

 

Edit: I just had a birthday, what do you want from me other than reflection.

[Ranxerox]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Edit: I just had a birthday, what do you want from me other than reflection.

 

Happy belated birthday.  Hope you have a year good enough to make you set aside some of your cynicalism. Indeed, I hope that for us all.

[DShomshak]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:59 PM, Lord Liaden said:

The American federal government gets most of the public attention, but a great deal of the business of governance occurs at the state and municipal level, which rarely receives the same level of scrutiny. But the recent medical crisis has underscored how much constitutional power state governments actually have when they choose to exercise it. Looking at how states have been banding together to develop coping strategies, it's possible the crisis may prompt states to form broader alliances to fill the vacuum of leadership from the federal level.

 

I need to start taking notes when I listen to the radio. Last year, I *think* it was On the Media that aired a story about the Great Republican State House Sweep of 2010. Conservatives present this as a great public rejection of the Obama administration's overreach. This story said: Not so much. A conservative activist/strategist (I want to say the same one who came up with the scheme for a citizenship question for the 2020 census, but I can't remember well enough) noticed that state house races involved small vote totals and not much money. So he nationalized them. It didn't take much money -- maybe $10,000 per candidate -- but suddenly Joe Dem faces a blitz of ads and mailings saying he's an evil socialist who hates the flag and wants an Obama Death Panel to kill your grandmother! Of *course* lots of Republicans won. It wasn't a case of Dems bringing a knife to a gunfight: Dems weren't fighting at all.

 

I tried to find the episode to check the source and post a link, but for 20 minutes every attempt to access On the Media's website resulted in nothing for several minutes, then an error message that AOHell had timed out. The World Wide Web is not kind to poor people stuck with dial-up. Sorry, I tried. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny the claim.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

In his now little-known book Daedalus: Or, Science and the Future, biologist J. B. S. Haldane offered an interesting argument about technological change.

 

The moral virtues (though not the intellictual virtues) are essentially means between extremes. What we think we should do is conditioned by what we can do.

 

Technological advance changes what we can do. As a result, social structures and attitudes that were once in some way functional become untenable. Institutions collapse. Actions which had been good become bad. Perhaps pertinently, "Our knowledge of hygiene has transformed resignation and inaction in the face of epidemic disease from a religious virtue to a justly punishable offense. We have improved our armaments, and patriotism, which was once a flame upon the altar, has become a world-devouring conflagration."

 

The internet vastly magnifies our ability to communicate and access information... and misinformation. It brought us live tweeting from Tahrir Square, and Russian troll farms spinning out hoaxes. I don't know where this leads. But Haldane offers some qualified hope: "I think then that the tendency of applied science is to magnify injustices until they become too intolerable to be borne, and the average man whom all the prophets and poets could not move, turns at last and extinguishes the evil at its source." But it will be a rough ride until then.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Ragitsu]

 

[Lord Liaden]

If this has legs, it could mean either that Donald Trump gets reelected, or Bernie Sanders becomes the Democratic candidate by default.

 

If it's true, Tara Reade deserves justice. But I would then start to wonder if Donald Trump really is God's chosen instrument, because only divine intervention could have saved his blundering ass this many times.

[Ragitsu]

3 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

or Bernie Sanders becomes the Democratic candidate by default.

 

The little boy in me that thought Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes is definitely going to show up wants to say "Hi." and "Super Mario is cool!" and "What do you mean?"

[Ragitsu]

Should we be concerned that Doctor Fauci is going to turn up on the back of a milk carton? Trump is unnecessary, Pence is a professional anus-kisser (who currently moonlights as a promoter of Air Bridge), Birx is morphing into a cheerleader and I have no interest in hearing companies sing their own praise; at least the good Doctor stuck to rationality and hard science.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

The little boy in me that thought Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes is definitely going to show up wants to say "Hi." and "Super Mario is cool!" and "What do you mean?"

 

Well, if Joe Biden becomes crippled by scandal, what choice would the party have but go to the runner-up? Especially this late in the process.

 

Not that I think it's likely they would do that, unless this made Biden obviously unelectable. But I'd hate to see a repeat of 2016, where Trump wins because too many people find his opponent unpalatable.

[Lord Liaden]

4 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

Should we be concerned that Doctor Fauci is going to turn up on the back of a milk carton? Trump is unnecessary, Pence is a professional anus-kisser (who currently moonlights as a promoter of Air Bridge), Birx is morphing into a cheerleader and I have no interest in hearing companies sing their own praise; at least the good Doctor stuck to rationality and hard science.

 

Yeah, those things aren't priorities of the Trump administration.

Fauci won't be "disappeared" or anything, but it's likely he won't be the face of the administration on this issue for much longer. What worries me is that Trump and cronies will stop listening to his advice.