Philosophy of Complications: Secret Identity

[PaladinAg]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:32 AM, dsatow said:

IDa was just thinking of secret/public ids.  Here's a few more tidbits I'd thought I'd interject.

 

I remember the Lex Luther/Flash scene and also Lex Luther and Superman, where Lex uses a massive computer program to determine Superman's real identity and surmises the computer is wrong as Superman would never stoop to being the common reporter, Clark Kent.

 

People like Doctor Doom have a Secret ID even though everyone know who Doctor Doom is.  Without his mask on, no one knows what Doom looks like now except for a very few people.

 

There are a lot of people who look like each other but are unrelated.  In Doctor Who, the Doctor says that it just coincidence and that after living 10+ lifetimes he believes that there are just so many major templates out there in genetics for the way people look.  In reality, facial recognition is probably about 90-99% accurate which may sound like a lot, but given a 1000 people that means somewhere from 10-100 people will be wrongly classified.  In a small town of 10,000 people that 100-1000 suspects.  In a city with a 500,000 people, thats 5000-50000 people.

 

A lot of TV shows and movies show people enhancing video images to get fairly clear pictures of the target.  Unfortunately, that usually doesn't work.  Most security cameras record to either tape (and the tape gets reused over and over resulting in grainy images) or are digital.  Digital images are usually from cameras that while they can possibly record at high images, for the sake of space, record at a lower image (1024x768 to 640x480).  Some security cameras also will only take one picture every second or two, and while the resolution is higher, they are not like your dSLR and the image is still fairly low.  Advancements have been made to programmablely extrapolate images based on existing data but the less data there is, the worse the extrapolation.  This kind of image extrapolation is cutting edge, university grant level work being done.

 

While any single vector of classification is not perfect for identifying people (except if your a minority in certain parts of the country - take a knee), most courts attempt use multiple vectors to validate your presence at a crime scene.  If each is 95% and there are 5 different things to identify you were there, then out of 4 million people, there is only 1 person it could be. (4000000 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 1.25)

 

An interesting study in what CCTV can and can't do, particularly when linked to police & intelligence databases has been the recent "reveal" of the Russian agents involved the Salisbury Novichok attack.  I wouldn't be at all surprised that more information exists and is being withheld from the public but the ability to pick up and track known persons of interest is quite remarkable, even against trained intelligence agents.  It would not take a government agency long to start collating evidence from each appearance of a super (and especially if they arrive by foot or other road vehicle) and, depending on the super's ability to confuse CCTV, disappear from databases or just being supernaturally good at skulking around,  they could start narrowing down the number of common appearances fairly quickly if there was a desire to do so.  This latter point is quite important from a countervailing perspective.  How keen is government to pursue a particular individual and what resource should be used?  I suspect that mass destruction supervillains would be prioritised over bank robbers and vengeful vigilantes over "code of hero" good guys.

 

[Christopher]

23 hours ago, PaladinAg said:

How keen is government to pursue a particular individual and what resource should be used?  I suspect that mass destruction supervillains would be prioritised over bank robbers and vengeful vigilantes over "code of hero" good guys. 

The Antihero for Hire Webcomic has established a "maximum save villain power". Wich explains why the miltiary does not respond to cases like "some guy is punchig my house" (yes, that really happened in that comic; and it turned out way wierder then you might imagine).
 

 

 

 

 

Source: http://www.giantrobot.club/antihero-for-hire/2016/6/13/municipal-war-horsemen-and-heroes

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Hermit
Profanity. Just use the link if you want to see the webcomic

[Tech]

dsatow said " There are a lot of people who look like each other but are unrelated.  In Doctor Who, the Doctor says that it just coincidence and that after living 10+ lifetimes he believes that there are just so many major templates out there in genetics for the way people look.  In reality, facial recognition is probably about 90-99% accurate which may sound like a lot, but given a 1000 people that means somewhere from 10-100 people will be wrongly classified.  In a small town of 10,000 people that 100-1000 suspects.  In a city with a 500,000 people, thats 5000-50000 people. "  etc.

 

I'm trying to recall an article so if I'm off on the facts, you'll have to excuse me. Facial Recognition isn't that high - maybe more like 40 -50%. A major company tried FR on a select members of congress to ID them... approx 50%-60% were identified as criminals. (Actually, I kinda agree but that's not the point.)

I don't care what Marvel says about secret Ids frankly.

 

The majority of heroes in the campaign I'm in have Secret Id's. Most have real good reasons for protecting their identities. I agree with the poster who said "not having a secret id doesn't mean he doesn't have one; it just means no one cares to search." (or something like that.)

[Christopher]

On 10/21/2018 at 7:09 PM, Christopher said:

The Antihero for Hire Webcomic has established a "maximum save villain power". Wich explains why the miltiary does not respond to cases like "some guy is punchig my house" (yes, that really happened in that comic; and it turned out way wierder then you might imagine).
  

 

 

 

 

Source: http://www.giantrobot.club/antihero-for-hire/2016/6/13/municipal-war-horsemen-and-heroes

 

As it is somewhat hard to follow the comics new format without image links, I try to limit it on the exact image in question. Wich I does not contain any Profanity I can see:

[DusterBoy]

On 10/10/2018 at 1:25 PM, bubba smith said:

as I understand it marvel considered the secret ID obsolete due to the preponderance of security cameras/devices

 

Also, 4chan and their weaponised autism. IRL case in point: there was an altercation at a free speech rally last year in which an ANTIFA member struck a civilian over the head with a bike lock. 4chan set to work using facial recognition programs (another reason why Secret IDs are obsolete) and found out that said ANTIFA member was an East bay professor called Eric Clanton.

 

So yeah.....

[Christopher]

16 minutes ago, DusterBoy said:

 

Also, 4chan and their weaponised autism. IRL case in point: there was an altercation at a free speech rally last year in which an ANTIFA member struck a civilian over the head with a bike lock. 4chan set to work using facial recognition programs (another reason why Secret IDs are obsolete) and found out that said ANTIFA member was an East bay professor called Eric Clanton. 

 

So yeah..... 

Without knowing if the guy even wore a mask, it is hard to evaluate this statement.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

25 minutes ago, DusterBoy said:

 

Also, 4chan and their weaponised autism. IRL case in point: there was an altercation at a free speech rally last year in which an ANTIFA member struck a civilian over the head with a bike lock. 4chan set to work using facial recognition programs (another reason why Secret IDs are obsolete) and found out that said ANTIFA member was an East bay professor called Eric Clanton.

 

So yeah.....

 I remember that story very well. They also identified a few others as well.  It would be very difficult these days to avoid scrutiny.   even normals with good phones could get some video of just about anything. There may be a 4Chan thread just about unmasking villains (and a few heroes), if there is enough video of the event.

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 I remember that story very well. They also identified a few others as well.  It would be very difficult these days to avoid scrutiny.   even normals with good phones could get some video of just about anything. There may be a 4Chan thread just about unmasking villains (and a few heroes), if there is enough video of the event. 

Then some villain makes a Virus to destroy 4chan any anything like it.

Or it actually is a supervillain platform, and they murder everyone that comes "to close to the truth".

[dsatow]

Just googled facial recognition accuracy.  If you are a white male, the accuracy is ~99%.  Up to ~35% less for other people.  Just in time for all those white male facists "free speech" enthusiasts.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recognition-race-artificial-intelligence.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/28/facial-recognition-technology-is-finally-more-accurate-identifying-people-color-could-that-be-used-against-immigrants/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.95fcd524f70d

 

[Tech]

In regards to a Secret Identity, it depends on the campaign such as if a campaign is going based on current world technology. Of course, there are easy ways to avoid facial recognition even without a mask. A mask can easily protect you, superpowers, super-technology can neutralize recognition technology, Luck, disguise skill, etc etc etc and the list goes on & on. It makes a Secret Identity worth the points (maybe worth more).

[steriaca]

What Tech says reminds me, none of the Sailor Guardians wear masks (except Sailor Venus in her Sailor V days, and Tuxedo Mask). While not especially mentioned, it is said that the Sailor Guardians (other than Tux) can generate some kind of glamour to disguise themselves when transformed. (That, or when transformed, they look like there preincarnation, and we only see one look as readers/watchers as a way to make things easy for us.)

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, steriaca said:

What Tech says reminds me, none of the Sailor Guardians wear masks (except Sailor Venus in her Sailor V days, and Tuxedo Mask). While not especially mentioned, it is said that the Sailor Guardians (other than Tux) can generate some kind of glamour to disguise themselves when transformed. (That, or when transformed, they look like there preincarnation, and we only see one look as readers/watchers as a way to make things easy for us.) 

You mean like in Stargate when people use those Ancient Communicaiton stones?

When we see them, we see the person currently in that body. In mirrors, we see the physical body?

[Christopher]

Grrrl Power deal with how realistic it was to keep a secret identity in the modern age, once even police level scrutiny was applied:

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1889

 

Finding that comic actually took me longer then I like to admit.

 

This were the commetns of the Author of Grrrl Power:
"Back in the day before DNA tests and mass spectrometers, it’s plausible that a vigilante could maintain a secret identity, especially if you have an environment where the bad guys have some weird unspoken rule about not unmasking them the instant they get knocked out, because otherwise why wouldn’t they? But with modern forensic science, it would basically be impossible. The first time a vigilante gets their lip split in a fight, the authorities would have their DNA. Swab it off someone’s knuckle, from under a fingernail, or a little spatter on a jacket or wall. Spit, skin cells, heck, just capturing them walking down a hall could be enough for gait analysis which could enormously narrow down a list of suspects.

Edit: I just wanted to add this since a few people are pointing it out; I know getting someone’s DNA doesn’t let you immediately identify them if you don’t already have a match on file, but it’s a slam dunk once you do get that match. And if they have a brother or uncle that’s a felon, then you’re suddenly a lot closer to knowing who you’re after. Plus, if you find the same DNA at 20 different scenes, then you have evidence that the same person was involved. Otherwise when you catch the guy, he could say “Oh I only was at the one scene you have evidence for, in fact I’m not even “Vigilante Mask” just a fan of his.”

In the case of someone like Batman, it can be argued that the cops kind of rely on him unofficially and don’t work too hard to unmask him. Also Bruce Wayne probably has the resources and contacts to have his DNA and fingerprints purged from any databases, but someone like Spider-Man? Unmasking him would probably be trivial if the authorities really wanted to.

The only way to avoid being identified would be to fight crime in one of those level 5 hazmat suits, or police the whole battle area in a super OCD manner for hairs and blood and bits of dirt you tracked in from your garden, recover all your Weasel-a-rangs, even the one that slid under the newpaper press or was deflected out the window by the ninja the bad guys hired to beat you in their desperation. Also you’d have to fight quietly and hope no one calls the cops on you for the noise so you have time to clean up. No stopping daylight robberies for you! Just brawls in abandoned warehouses."

[Tech]

The campaign determines what role a disadvantage/complication such as secret identity has, if allowed. Superspeedsters cannot exist using actual science. Superheroic campaigns are above modern day rules, including forensics, dna, etc because that's the genre. For anyone to try to force real life rules on a superheroic game seems silly, since superheroes don't exist in real life anyways. Since superpowers exist, so does the possibility of secret identities and the ability to keep them secret. Alot of this emphasis seems to be applicable to a gritty-feel campaign.

[Scott Ruggels]

12 minutes ago, Tech said:

The campaign determines what role a disadvantage/complication such as secret identity has, if allowed. Superspeedsters cannot exist using actual science. Superheroic campaigns are above modern day rules, including forensics, dna, etc because that's the genre. For anyone to try to force real life rules on a superheroic game seems silly, since superheroes don't exist in real life anyways. Since superpowers exist, so does the possibility of secret identities and the ability to keep them secret. Alot of this emphasis seems to be applicable to a gritty-feel campaign.

Yes, but in my experience, most Superhero campaigns follow along the tropes of current comics, and some of the writers flip back and forth from television (Gerry Conway Fred), so many of the ideas from TV and some movies flip back to comics. Times change, technology advances. So unless you are run a specific “ metallic age” campaign, the real world, or at least the movie and TV world will leak in through the players. I for one would love to play in an MCU flavored Champions campaign. 

[Steve]

Some people are even able to maintain Secret IDs without even using a mask.

 

For example, in the Champions Universe, the supervillain Talisman uses a minor glamour that makes those who see her face forget exactly what she looks like.

[Christopher]

7 minutes ago, Steve said:

Some people are even able to maintain Secret IDs without even using a mask.

 

For example, in the Champions Universe, the supervillain Talisman uses a minor glamour that makes those who see her face forget exactly what she looks like.

"Glamour" is just short for "magic mask". So she does wear one in the end

[Mark Rand]

On 10/24/2018 at 4:16 PM, steriaca said:

What Tech says reminds me, none of the Sailor Guardians wear masks (except Sailor Venus in her Sailor V days, and Tuxedo Mask). While not especially mentioned, it is said that the Sailor Guardians (other than Tux) can generate some kind of glamour to disguise themselves when transformed. (That, or when transformed, they look like there preincarnation, and we only see one look as readers/watchers as a way to make things easy for us.)

After rewatching some of the first season episodes yesterday, I have to agree.  When Sailor Venus, in her civilian identity, met the other Sailor Guardians in their civilian identities at the shrine, she stated that she didn't recognize them and Sailor Mercury said that they didn't recognize her.

[Hermit]

(Rise rise dead thread)

I stumbled onto an old post of mine, and it reminded me of THIS thread because it showed that superhumans are not without their own often considerable resources. You can argue that they might lose the moral high ground, but if you want more reasons why superheroes might have pull enough to complicate secret identities getting out... well, maybe the situation below (More meant to deal with registration acts and hard against super politicians than identities specifically) might work for you on why some politicians might seriously think twice about pushing hard on a superhuman community

 

 

Monument (D.C.'s hero)

 

Monument broke through yet another door while PRIMUS and VIPER agents battled it out outside. She found the Senator bound up and ready for transport. She made a note of the security cameras in the room- good.

 

"Monument!" He cried out, "Help me!" His eyes were wide and his face was pale.

 

The agents that were securing him turned and fired powerful concussive blasts that would have broken down a bank vault.

 

They might as well have been firing water pistols. Monument's skin might look like Marble, but it was much stronger than that. The Super heroine waded through the rays of energy as if walking into a headwind. Three punches later, it was all over.

 

She snapped the senator free strap by strap, but continued to do so. She had no love of this man, far from it, but at least while the VIPER agents in this room were down, they could talk.

 

"Senator, I hope you realize just how ironic this is, given your stance on superhumans?"

 

The man looked disoriented, and confused. The sounds of blasterfire continued. Then he seemed to come to, "Ironic maybe, but I stand by my stance. It's what the people want. You super heroes think you're above the law!" Still, he swallowed.

 

"I think the registration act will eventually come undone and a lot of good men and women are going to die because of it," She tried to stay calm, and freed him from the last bond. She hoped Douglas was on the job. She hated putting him in harms way, but the man was ex secret service, he was used to it.

 

"Just get me the hell out of here" The Politician said as if expecting a new threat to arise.

 

"As you like Senator,"  She fireman carried him through the wreckage despite his protests about the indignity of it. Already VIPER was in full retreat, and PRIMUS and the local heroes of DC were victorious.

 

She sat him down, pretending she didn't notice the cameras and spoke clearly, "Take good care of the senator¦ he's been pretty frightened,"  She tried to mix just the right amount of sympathy with pity. Too much of the former, and others would feel the same, too much of the latter, and her contempt would be evident instead of subtle.

 

The senator sputtered.

"No need to thank me Senator,"  Monument inclined her head, "Now, I really must be going. Thank you, good folks of PRMUS,"  and she left.. though naturally under the pretense of leaving she allowed some reporters to wean a few choice comments (Her choosing, not theirs) on the situation as she went.

 

Much later, in her lair, she glanced over the disc again, "This is good stuff Douglas."

Douglas smiled, "Good thing for you VIPER likes keeping records. They hadn't transmitted this yet, that I could tell, but I figure this gives you what you want."

 

"True. We edit out, very carefully, the parts that remotely portray the senator in a noble or brave light..."

"Not much to edit there."  Douglas smirked, but Monument continued..

"....emphasize the parts that have him giving up blubbering willing to give up government secrets, and then later pleading for my help. We should manage to portray him as a coward quite easily, and while folks might show sympathy for a coward, they won't re-elect one."

"Sending it to his rival, or the internet?" Douglass asked.

"Both I think. Run it through the internet in parts first, make sure it looks like a copy of a copy of a copy, then voila!  He disputes it. Claims someone is picking on him. Then we send the original disc anonymously. I pay Donald well he'll make sure the alterations are nearly untraceable. In the end, it won't matter. Seeds of doubt will be planted, and that coupled with the money I've funneled into his defeat will finish him. One less anti super politician in congress."

 

"Donald's one of the best, " Douglas conceded.  "Guess he feels he owes you for getting him out of the Shadow Army."

Monument remembered the cover up she had done to keep Donald's record clean, so he could go back to his family and see his daughter without prison bars in the way. Sometimes she felt guilty, but this was Washington, and compromises had to be made.

 

"I guess he does.. besides, there's a lot we'll do for family,"  The marble seeming heroine let a note of pain enter her voice.

 

Douglas noticed it and asked, "You want to head to Millennium City to,  you know, pay respects at the park?"

 

She shook her head, "No. No more worrying about the past. Just making sure the past doesn't repeat itself. That damned registration act meant any hero not registered was denied access to important information about Dr Destroyer and his minions. Information that could have saved their lives. That's not happening again, not if I can help it"  Inwardly, she hoped the rest of the Civic Guard never found out. Some of them would never approve... never understand.

 

Douglas nodded. He had more respect for her than some of the presidents and Veeps he'd protected in the past. Sure, she sometimes got herself dirty, sure she had an agenda. But it was DC! EVERYONE has an Agenda.

 

 

[bubba smith]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:27 AM, Ockham's Spoon said:

While it is technically a social complication, in many ways Secret ID is a psychological complication, because no one *has* to keep a secret ID; you just deal with a different set of problems depending on whether people know who you are or not.  The secret ID is a classic trope, but in this day and age when being a reality TV star is seen as a legitimate career goal, it can seem a bit dated. Really the only reason to maintain one is because you don't want the problems of your superhero career intruding in on your personal life (and vice versa).  And that might be a perfectly valid concern, but it is a personal decision, and in many ways trying to keep them separate is a bigger headache for you than not, which is why it is a complication.

amen

[Duke Bushido]

Deleted for being unnecessary.

 

Just noticed these questions were answered months ago.

 

My bad.  

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Duke Bushido
redundant

[megaplayboy]

Generally, the reasons a Secret ID is a complication:

1. the character's normal identity is accountable to others for their whereabouts, and their day job or normal identity makes it difficult at times for them to just duck out and go save the day(imagine Heroman is eating Thanksgiving dinner with his extended family, who don't know he is actually Heroman, and there's a newsflash about a hostage situation at a bank--how does he get out of there without people wondering what's going on?)

2. There could be personal consequences for the hero's "real" identity being revealed--job loss, arrest, having to go on the run from authorities, etc.

3. If the character has Hunteds, then discovery of their true identity would leave them nowhere to hide.

4. If the character has DNPCs, then discovery of their true identity would complicate those relationships--either they are put at risk, or they have issues with the character being a hero/lying to them

5. A superhero without a Secret ID is a superhero with a greatly reduced expectation of privacy--paparazzi and media may hound them, random people come to them on the street asking for autographs or help with their stolen car, etc.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, megaplayboy said:

A superhero without a Secret ID is a superhero with a greatly reduced expectation of privacy--paparazzi and media may hound them, random people come to them on the street asking for autographs or help with their stolen car, etc.

 

To me, this is a superhero with a Public ID, a superhero without either has no privacy issues.  Does not need to protect an ID and does not need to deal with invasions of privacy.

 

Doc

[megaplayboy]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

To me, this is a superhero with a Public ID, a superhero without either has no privacy issues.  Does not need to protect an ID and does not need to deal with invasions of privacy.

 

Doc

Or, at least, such issues don't come up often enough to justify getting complication points for it.  I was referring to a superhero with an "exposed" Secret Identity.  Presumably, those with a preexisting Public ID have had time to adjust to it, as have their friends, family and associates.  

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

Or, at least, such issues don't come up often enough to justify getting complication points for it.  I was referring to a superhero with an "exposed" Secret Identity.  Presumably, those with a preexisting Public ID have had time to adjust to it, as have their friends, family and associates.  

 

I thought that was the case but I just wanted to point it out for all the kids in the audience that might not have understood.  ?