Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Michael Hopcroft]

Nazi ewoks. Who don't use their turn signals.

Are there any Nazi Ewoks who do?

 

When Star Wars came out, there were controversies about it that flew above my head about its imagery. The medal scene at the end was particularly derided, with legendary New Yorker film critic Pauline Kael comparing it to a scene from the Nazi rally portrayed in Triumph of the Will. It didn't help that there was only one non-white actor in the entire production, and he was uncredited at that, Was it a matter of who he could get to do the film at the time, or did George Lucas really white-wash the Galaxy Farm, Far Away? (In later films, Lucas would often be accused of hiding racist caricatures behind alien makeup or CGI imagery, Exhibit A; Jar Jar Binks and Gungans in general. Exhibit B: the Trade Federation aliens.)

[Badger]

That would be interesting to know.  I dont think in 1977, despite the turmoil of the previous decade, that they thought about making sure their movies had the proper amount of minorities.  I dont think "PC" was quite what it was then, compared to what it is now.

[Tech priest support]

At times I wonder if Lucas, who has a reputation as a rebel, did the prequels as a lightsaber like middle finger to PC.

 

You know I think it's possible. He wanted to create a studio on his exclusive property once and his neighbors blocked it. So out of spite he developed it as affordable housing for working class people out of his own pocket.

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/george-lucas-to-build-affordable-housing-in-one-of-the-richest-parts-of-america/

[Nolgroth]

No, doubt evil there, I just see it with Antifa involved Bad vs Evil.  Antifa is less of a threat, but I still see it as a danger, if allowed to grow.  It might be enemy of my enemy is my friend right now.  But, I worry it might be the Stalin we deal with to defeat their Hitler.

 

 

Nothing I hate more than Nazis, but in our rush to stop one group, I don't want to underestimate the next threat. 

 

In Dan Simon's excellent post above, using the ISIS analogy, Antifa would be the equivalent to Al-Queda. They are definitely enemies of our enemies, but that doesn't necessarily make them our friends.

[Lord Liaden]

In Dan Simon's excellent post above, using the ISIS analogy, Antifa would be the equivalent to Al-Queda. They are definitely enemies of our enemies, but that doesn't necessarily make them our friends.

 

I disagree with that analogy. Al-Qaeda and ISIS share very similar ideologies and agendas. I think a closer analogy to Antifa would be the rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria. They want to overthrow a dictator, but are willing to commit some of his same crimes to do it.

[Doc Democracy]

I have a real problem here. I think that the right wing (in any country) are a real problem. I do not think that we have an equivalent left wing issue to point to.

 

Those who oppose right wing marchers have a problem in that those marchers often consider it acceptable to use violence against those that oppose them or to prevent them accessing areas that do not wish their presence.

 

What do they do? Do they passively resist and accept the beatings etc that come? Do they stand aside and allow marches despite opposing the march? Do they fight back?

 

One of my favourite songs is the Ghosts of Cable Street which remembers ordinary people erecting barricades in the streets to prevent the British fascists in the 1930's marching through jewish areas of London. The similarities with today in the US are amazing. In 1936, about 20,000 anti-fascists were met by 6,000 police to permit a march of 2,000–3,000 fascists. The police ended up fighting the demonstrators because the Government would not ban the marching. The battle of cable street however did effectively end the ambitions of the fascist movement in the UK and put us firmly on the right side of the conflict that followed a few years later.

 

 

Doc

[megaplayboy]

Well, incitement is when organizers are exhorting their followers to "imminent lawless activity"(usually, violence).  "Fighting words" is when organizers and participants are doing their utmost to provoke observers to violence(through offensive and intimidating utterances and actions and displays).  In cases of the open display of firearms, this is arguably an effort to intimidate counter-protesters, and to deter police from aggressively intervening.  

 

Over and above all this, you have an ideology whose ultimate fruition is mass genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid.  

 

Against this, you have counter-protesters, the vast majority of which are peaceful and not particularly interested in violent confrontation; Antifa, an anarchist "non-organization" split into local groups, the majority membership of which(from what I've read) is primarily interested in confronting fascism without initiating violence, and protecting counterprotesters against white supremacist "thug squads"; and a faction of Antifa who believe in more aggressive confrontation of fascists and white supremacists, on the theory that, unchallenged, these inherently anti-democratic groups are a serious threat to a free society.  My personal view is that the last group tends to undermine the goals of the first two groups, because they create a space for false equivalence, and secondarily because taken to the extreme they are themselves a threat to free expression.

 

Having said that, I'm not certain that these white supremacists and fascists have not essentially crossed the line beyond permissible free expression/assembly to incitement/provocation/intimidation.  They have a right to speak and a right to march.  Do they have a right to incite a riot?  Do they have a right to intimidate communities?  The ACLU has taken the new position that they will not defend hate speech/groups when said groups assemble and march while openly armed, which I think is a reasonable and highly defensible position.  If I marched around with a small army the tolerance for our "1st amendment rights" would shrink pretty darn quick.  

[Lord Liaden]

What's truly disheartening is that the situation in the United States has come to the point where we feel the need to even debate equivalency to fascists.

[Nolgroth]

What's truly disheartening is that the situation in the United States has come to the point where we feel the need to even debate equivalency to fascists.

 

I don't. Seriously, all of my vitriol towards Antifa, pales in comparison to what I feel about the other side. I just don't mention it because of the whole foregone conclusion thing. I just think that hanging our hopes on domestic troublemakers (terrorists seems way like too strong a word) may not be the way to go. Then again, history may prove me wrong and in two hundred years we look back with fondness at the Antifa movement and erect monuments to them. 

 

Also, Right-wing does not equal "fascist" anymore than Left-wing equals "socialist." Sure, members of both sides gravitate towards those ideologies, but not everybody does. Somewhere towards the middle are people who disagree, but can still have a healthy debate.

[Old Man]

Having said that, I'm not certain that these white supremacists and fascists have not essentially crossed the line beyond permissible free expression/assembly to incitement/provocation/intimidation.  They have a right to speak and a right to march.  Do they have a right to incite a riot?  Do they have a right to intimidate communities?  The ACLU has taken the new position that they will not defend hate speech/groups when said groups assemble and march while openly armed, which I think is a reasonable and highly defensible position.  If I marched around with a small army the tolerance for our "1st amendment rights" would shrink pretty darn quick.  

 

Given the history involved, a KKK rally or Nazi march by definition constitutes intimidation.  The entire point of these gatherings is to frighten non-white people and call for their ejection from the country (or worse).  Burning a cross is not free speech, it's a threat.  Wearing KKK colors is a threat.  Waving Nazi flags is a threat.  Parading around in riot gear with shields, clubs, and guns is a threat. 

 

I know the fascists don't represent the entire right wing, but I've also noticed that the right wing is not particularly vigorous in disavowing the fascists, or refusing their votes.

[megaplayboy]

The creepy thing is that the GOP establishment doesn't seem all that intetested in cracking down on right wing domestic terrorism. There is left wing domestic terrorism, but it's quite small compared to its heyday in the 60s and 70s. Not so for the rw extremists.

[Sociotard]

I read comments on a few RW forums.  They believe "the left is just as bad".  They point to the recent congressman getting shot, for example, and the Dallas police ambush.

[pinecone]

I read comments on a few RW forums.  They believe "the left is just as bad".  They point to the recent congressman getting shot, for example, and the Dallas police ambush.

I believe they do...but they aren't 8 years old..(Add in "Mom" voice: If they jump off a bridge, would You jump off a bridge)

[Lord Liaden]

I hate "the other side does things that are just as bad" justifications. If there was ever a situation of, "two wrongs don't make a right," this is it. Regardless of whether a minority of racists are deliberately violent, or whether a minority of those who oppose them are equally violent, racism is a philosophical boil on the butt of the human condition, end of story.

[Michael Hopcroft]

I actually unsubscribed from the newsletter of wargame publisher Avalanche Press today when it features, for the second week in a row,, prominently displayed images of the Lee statue on Charlottesville that someone literally died over. They were clearly making a statement, that they wanted it to stay up and that as far as they could tell "wargamer" automatically equals "conservative". The most dedicated wargamer I know, who specializes in the American Civil War, is an African-American liberal and one of the most generous people I have ever met in my life. The stereotype rings false.

 

I told Avalanche in no uncertain terms how they had lost my business. Wargamer and Conservative do not imply one another in the least.

[Lucius]

I actually unsubscribed from the newsletter of wargame publisher Avalanche Press today when it features, for the second week in a row,, prominently displayed images of the Lee statue on Charlottesville that someone literally died over. They were clearly making a statement, that they wanted it to stay up and that as far as they could tell "wargamer" automatically equals "conservative". The most dedicated wargamer I know, who specializes in the American Civil War, is an African-American liberal and one of the most generous people I have ever met in my life. The stereotype rings false.

 

I told Avalanche in no uncertain terms how they had lost my business. Wargamer and Conservative do not imply one another in the least.

For that matter, I doubt "conservative" automatically implies "Fan of the Confederacy" or "Wants statues of Confederate leaders prominently displayed in public places."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But a post by Lucius Alexander does imply a palindromedary tagline

[Pattern Ghost]

The majority of those statues were placed by the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy. I have my own thoughts of what their motives were in placing them, and historical preservation isn't in those thoughts.

[TrickstaPriest]

The majority of those statues were placed by the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy. I have my own thoughts of what their motives were in placing them, and historical preservation isn't in those thoughts.

 

I've seen some statistics on when most of them were put up.  I wonder how neat it would be to start collecting really comprehensive data on some of this stuff... just potentially useful or interesting.

 

I mean, more and more places are leaving databases full of data on the open web cause of AWS.  Why not us?  0:)

[megaplayboy]

I actually unsubscribed from the newsletter of wargame publisher Avalanche Press today when it features, for the second week in a row,, prominently displayed images of the Lee statue on Charlottesville that someone literally died over. They were clearly making a statement, that they wanted it to stay up and that as far as they could tell "wargamer" automatically equals "conservative". The most dedicated wargamer I know, who specializes in the American Civil War, is an African-American liberal and one of the most generous people I have ever met in my life. The stereotype rings false.

 

I told Avalanche in no uncertain terms how they had lost my business. Wargamer and Conservative do not imply one another in the least.

I've played the German or Japanese side in dozens of wargames.  It doesn't make me conservative or a supporter of fascism.  Often the appeal of playing "the bad guys" in a wargame is just trying to win a more challenging scenario.  

[Pattern Ghost]

I've played the German or Japanese side in dozens of wargames.  It doesn't make me conservative or a supporter of fascism.  Often the appeal of playing "the bad guys" in a wargame is just trying to win a more challenging scenario.  

 

I think Michael's saying that the magazine in question is repeatedly making a statement against the removal of the statue. IMO, any person making that statement is misinformed or worse. Either way, it seems like making political statements by way of hobby magazines is a good way to reduce readership.

[Tech priest support]

OK let's make this simple enough for more people to understand.

 

You're black and you have to go to court. How do you feel when you see a statue of someone who fougt for you to be a slave, property, with no legal protection or human rights, out in front of that court, or your local city hall, or your state capitol?

 

Get it now?

[megaplayboy]

I think Michael's saying that the magazine in question is repeatedly making a statement against the removal of the statue. IMO, any person making that statement is misinformed or worse. Either way, it seems like making political statements by way of hobby magazines is a good way to reduce readership.

Sure.  Also, while, say, engineering majors may be somewhat more likely to be conservative, history majors are somewhat more likely to be liberal, and both of them are drawn to wargaming.  Ditto for RPGers--you get all parts of the political spectrum in a randomly assembled gaming group.  

[Lord Liaden]

It's also worth underlining that the term "conservative" can include social conservatives, and fiscal conservatives. You can be one, even extreme in one, without being the other, or even being very "liberal" in the other.

[assault]

Socialists tend to be history geeks, and a lot of them are drawn to wargaming.

 

It's particularly useful when you are playing an American Civil War or English Civil War game. There are always people who want to play the Confederates or the Royalists, but diehard Abolitionists and Levellers are rarer.

[Pattern Ghost]

Get it now?

 

I'm 97.125% certain that everyone participating in this thread gets it. Were you under that impression that someone wasn't getting it?