Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Badger]

THey still seem short on either of the 2 things I am looking for to truly taint the election  1)Proof of hacking the machines to actually alter the election numbers  2)Proof of direct collusion with Trump, thus creating a modern Watergate-type scenario.

 

 

I am also not sure if the FBI should be your go-to source of "trust" on this matter.  Especially considering the same people who would do that vilified them not 2 months before. (just an observation for what it is worth)

 

 

 

Ironically, "Comey is an untrustworthy hack" might be the one and only statement of 2016, both liberals and conservatives can agree on.

[megaplayboy]

FWIW, the FBI and CIA are now on the same page as to the intentions of the Russians(to help Trump win), and the conclusion that it was the Russians is shared by the other domestic intelligence agencies, several foreign agencies, private cybersecurity experts and several investigative journalists.

 

I agree that collusion with the Russians by any member of the Trump campaign would effectively make this the largest US political scandal in modern history, eclipsing Watergate. It would, imo, effectively disqualify Mr. Trump from assuming the office of President. Short of that, we still have a major national security/national sovereignty issue to address here, and some kind of effective response to Russia has to include not just stepped up cyber-defense but some kind of retaliatory "bloody nose" for them. Otherwise they will just get bolder and bolder.

[Badger]

(towards your 2nd paragraph)Yeah, same page on that. 

 

Would have been nice if cyber-security was taken more seriously for like the last decade, though.  Seemed the attitude was "couldnt happen here".  I suppose my lecture is pointless, now.

[Clonus]

FWIW, the FBI and CIA are now on the same page as to the intentions of the Russians(to help Trump win), and the conclusion that it was the Russians is shared by the other domestic intelligence agencies, several foreign agencies, private cybersecurity experts and several investigative journalists.

 

I agree that collusion with the Russians by any member of the Trump campaign would effectively make this the largest US political scandal in modern history, eclipsing Watergate. It would, imo, effectively disqualify Mr. Trump from assuming the office of President. Short of that, we still have a major national security/national sovereignty issue to address here,

 

 

There is not the slightest reason to think that the Russians needed the collusion of the Trump Campaign in any sense to do what they did.  Nor does this really constitute a major national security or sovereignty issue.  No government databases were involved.  Nor is it truly a sovereignty issue.  While tens of million of people saw Putin put his thumb in, and voted in favour of the candidate he was backing anyway, that is not truly a national sovereignty issue.  Just a very close election and a surprising lack of backlash.  

[megaplayboy]

There is not the slightest reason to think that the Russians needed the collusion of the Trump Campaign in any sense to do what they did. Nor does this really constitute a major national security or sovereignty issue. No government databases were involved. Nor is it truly a sovereignty issue. While tens of million of people saw Putin put his thumb in, and voted in favour of the candidate he was backing anyway, that is not truly a national sovereignty issue. Just a very close election and a surprising lack of backlash.

National cybersecurity IS a national security issue. The Russians also hacked the Joint chiefs of staff email server and a voter registration database. If we don't respond strongly, the next cyber attack will be on the election itself.

[TheDarkness]

I would say clandestine foreign involvement in an election is only really done as an attack on said nations sovereignty. It was a direct attempt to influence the vote. What other purpose would they have had? Breaking up a boring news cycle?

[Old Man]

Note that if we'd caught the Russians tampering with an election in Bananistan, we'd be loudly shouting about the illegitimacy of the result and demanding a new election.

[TheDarkness]

Note that if we'd caught the Russians tampering with an election in Bananistan, we'd be loudly shouting about the illegitimacy of the result and demanding a new election.

Damn straight! Bananistan is ours to tamper with!

[Michael Hopcroft]

What I wonder is this -- what does Vladimir Putin seek to gain from intervening in the election on behalf of Trump? Putin is many things, few of them pleasant, but he has always placed his own interests before anything else. He views Russia as an extension of himself, and the Russian people seem to have little interest in disabusing him of that notion.

 

So what does he want from Trump? A freer hand in Eastern Europe? Restoration of full trade with the West? Increased markets for Russian petroleum?

 

I can't bring myself to believe that Putin truly has America's best interests at heart.

[Burrito Boy]

Former NSA Analyst Debunks Three Myths About Russian Hacking

 

 

http://observer.com/2016/12/former-nsa-analyst-debunks-three-myths-about-russian-hacking/

[TheDarkness]

If you are a foreign leader contending with the most powerful country in the world, would you rather have it lead by someone with experience and a power base in politics, or a divisive populist with no political experience and no power base in politics?

[csyphrett]

What I wonder is this -- what does Vladimir Putin seek to gain from intervening in the election on behalf of Trump? Putin is many things, few of them pleasant, but he has always placed his own interests before anything else. He views Russia as an extension of himself, and the Russian people seem to have little interest in disabusing him of that notion.

 

So what does he want from Trump? A freer hand in Eastern Europe? Restoration of full trade with the West? Increased markets for Russian petroleum?

 

I can't bring myself to believe that Putin truly has America's best interests at heart.

Trump and Putin have been friends for years Mike.

CES

[DasBroot]

If you are a foreign leader contending with the most powerful country in the world, would you rather have it lead by someone with experience and a power base in politics, or a divisive populist with no political experience and no power base in politics?

 

Exactly.  

 

Trump is a noob.

 

Plus, if the allegations are true you've proven that you CAN interfere with your most powerful rival - and if there are no repercussions you can meddle with it again.

[Twilight]

Trump and Putin have been friends for years Mike.

CES

Precisely.  Putin interfered to put one of his cronies into the American Presidency.

[womble]

What I wonder is this -- what does Vladimir Putin seek to gain from intervening in the election on behalf of Trump? Putin is many things, few of them pleasant, but he has always placed his own interests before anything else. He views Russia as an extension of himself, and the Russian people seem to have little interest in disabusing him of that notion.

 

So what does he want from Trump? A freer hand in Eastern Europe? Restoration of full trade with the West? Increased markets for Russian petroleum?

 

I can't bring myself to believe that Putin truly has America's best interests at heart.

What does he want? The things you said, and to persuade the Russians that he's "Making Russia Great Again", so they continue to ignore the theft of their national assets by Putin and his cronies for their personal enrichment.

 

There really isn't any need to try and put any benevolent motives into Putin's actions. Malice and greed (extreme self-interest) will pretty much provide accurate general classes of reasons for anything that gangster does.

[Sociotard]

President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has asked the State Department to list its workers who focus on gender equality and ending violence against women, in what's being seen as an echo of an earlier request for the Energy Department to list employees who work on climate change.

[Iuz the Evil]

President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has asked the State Department to list its workers who focus on gender equality and ending violence against women, in what's being seen as an echo of an earlier request for the Energy Department to list employees who work on climate change.

Wait, what? Working to end violence against women gets you on a list?

[Sociotard]

Maybe its a good list?

[Old Man]

Maybe its a good list?

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has asked the State Department to list its workers who focus on gender equality and ending violence against women, in what's being seen as an echo of an earlier request for the Energy Department to list employees who work on climate change.

 

 

Wait, what? Working to end violence against women gets you on a list?

 

 

Maybe its a good list?

From all I can tell, some of the Trump supporters favor violence against women -- or, at the very least, believe it's none of our business. It looks for all the world like trump is setting an "orthodoxy" and planning to cull those in the government service who are unwilling to conform to it. At least that's what the Pepe boys seem to desire.

 

I said this at the beginning of the campaign -- no democracy has ever survived effective fanaticism. There's an unfortunate corollary to that -- every time that has happened, said fanatics led their nation into unimaginable disaster. And given the sheer firepower Trump will have at his disposal in a little under that month, that disaster might be the sudden end of human civilization.

 

Not that anybody will miss it much.

[TrickstaPriest]

That's a direction I have not expected.  I thought suggesting that humanity was ending the world was what was necessary to earn the raucous laughter of the inane and boorish.  Apparently suggesting anything is wrong at all is enough.

 

 

I kind of told my friends that I expect this presidency to lie somewhere between the McCarthy and Nixon eras, and in that I have not been disappointed yet.

[Lord Liaden]

What I wonder is this -- what does Vladimir Putin seek to gain from intervening in the election on behalf of Trump? Putin is many things, few of them pleasant, but he has always placed his own interests before anything else. He views Russia as an extension of himself, and the Russian people seem to have little interest in disabusing him of that notion.

 

So what does he want from Trump? A freer hand in Eastern Europe? Restoration of full trade with the West? Increased markets for Russian petroleum?

 

I can't bring myself to believe that Putin truly has America's best interests at heart.

 

Hillary Clinton is widely considered to hold a deep distrust for Putin, predating and continuing through her term as Secretary of State: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/from-reset-to-pause-the-real-story-behind-hillary-clintons-feud-with-vladimir-putin/2016/11/03/f575f9fa-a116-11e6-8832-23a007c77bb4_story.html . Putin would likely have anticipated a cold, perhaps confrontational relationship with a Hillary Clinton administration.

[Sociotard]

President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has asked the State Department to list its workers who focus on gender equality and ending violence against women, in what's being seen as an echo of an earlier request for the Energy Department to list employees who work on climate change.

 

Evidently, NPR may have overstated things a bit. NYT says the memo to the State Dept. just asks for the names of Positions, groups, committees, and budgets that work on violence against women.  Not like when they actually asked for Energy Dept names that worked on Climate science. So not quite as Chairman Mao as I thought.

[Iuz the Evil]

The Energy Department actually declined to provide those lists.

[Clonus]

Evidently, NPR may have overstated things a bit. NYT says the memo to the State Dept. just asks for the names of Positions, groups, committees, and budgets that work on violence against women.  Not like when they actually asked for Energy Dept names that worked on Climate science. So not quite as Chairman Mao as I thought.

 

It does indicate that they intend to shut down all State Department activity in that direction.