Goodman's Tips

[Christopher R Taylor]

Got any good tips?

 

Those of us who are past a certain age remember fondly the Goodman's tips in the old Champions books.  They were bits on how to build a character more efficiently (13 and 18 are great break points in stats!).  The story behind them is great, apparently there was a buddy of one of the writers named Goodman who wasn't a big gamer but he was one of those guys who always knew just instinctively how to squeeze the most out of any rule set and so the bit was slipped into the books.

 

I have been thinking over some of those, most of them still apply but are less efficient than before (like buying your CON up to push like 4 other stats, plus your roll).  Stuff like:

-holding your attack to block with, then attack first on the next phase

-multiple attacks on large or immobile targets

-help your buddy's skill roll with a complimentary skill roll if things are tough

-take a little more time

-look at more obscure combat maneuvers like set and brace

 

That kind of thing.  What are some other Goodman-like efficiency and insider tips would you suggest for newer players?

[Duke Bushido]

Along the Goodman lines, specifically:

 

Add one more point to your DEX.  It can stave off tie breakers with folks who buy in blocks. 

 

Got a couple of points left from character creation?  You will never go wrong dropping them into Recovery. 

 

And not really Goodman, but from the things I have learned file:

 

_Always_ have a held action.  If you don't use it as a counter-attack, take a Recovery with it.  As soon as you use a held action, get another one as soon as you safely can. 

 

Saving up your experience points to buy something sweet?  You can store them on the back of your character sheet, but you can also store them in Endurance.  Sure, you can store them in any characteristic, especially in 6e, but that little extra. It of End in older editions can be surprisingly handy, and you don't miss it as much when it's time to cash it in.  If you are playing 6e, store them in Recovery. 

 

 

(related note:  had a player who was working toward saving thirty-two points for i-dont-even-remember-what-- this was right after the 'radiation accident' article came out. He stored his points in COM. 

 

Man we had fun with that, and twice as much after he spent them.) 

[Lord Liaden]

If a character has significant Movement with Running or Flight, I find Movement Skill Levels to be a really good investment. At 2 CP each they're dirt cheap considering the versatility they can give you:  improved Turn Mode, enhanced acceleration/deceleration, and increased DCV when Dodging.

[Scott Ruggels]

Ahh the Late Steve Goodman. He was a regular at Hero games and was famous for rules hacks. He played more Fantasy Hero than Champions, but he was a member of The Guardians. Very chill guy and a font of information. I’ll raise a shot glass of Glenlivet in his memory. 

[assault]

Steve Goodman gave us Bulldozer, amongst other characters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

These are the entries from the Goodman School of Cost Efficiency.  They are actually longer and more detailed than I remember, about a 3rd of the page.  These are summaries:

 

-After a certain point, complications start to lose their effectiveness and become a net loss for your character (this was before 6th edition, when complications brought down your total overall character cost).

-Rounding in characteristics results in certain break points such as 13 and 18 (anything ending in a 3 or 8 ) which makes them very efficient

-Odd numbers of dice or point totals round down giving you better END Cost, especially if you buy half END on a power (both 8d6 and 9d6 blast is 4 END for example).

-Levels are the great equalizer, allowing for a lower CV character to be excellent where they need it, particularly broader categories like a level in Multipower or Overall levels which are very efficient

-DEX is super efficient because it gave you several figured characteristics, including "hidden" ones like CV and combat order.

-Rounding comes up again in movement, giving you a full 1" added half move (8" running is 4" half move, but 9" is 5" and only cost 2 more points).

-CON is the biggest bonus for figured characteristics, giving you ED, REC, END, and STN not to mention protecting you from being stunned

 

Some of these aren't as significant any more, and all of them probably seem really obvious to old time players, because we all studied Goodman's ideas and took them to heart decades ago but I think they matter a lot to new players, helping them see how to construct a more effective character.

 

[Mr. R]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

These are the entries from the Goodman School of Cost Efficiency.  They are actually longer and more detailed than I remember, about a 3rd of the page.  These are summaries:

 

-After a certain point, complications start to lose their effectiveness and become a net loss for your character (this was before 6th edition, when complications brought down your total overall character cost).

-Rounding in characteristics results in certain break points such as 13 and 18 (anything ending in a 3 or 8 ) which makes them very efficient

-Odd numbers of dice or point totals round down giving you better END Cost, especially if you buy half END on a power (both 8d6 and 9d6 blast is 4 END for example).

-Levels are the great equalizer, allowing for a lower CV character to be excellent where they need it, particularly broader categories like a level in Multipower or Overall levels which are very efficient

-DEX is super efficient because it gave you several figured characteristics, including "hidden" ones like CV and combat order.

-Rounding comes up again in movement, giving you a full 1" added half move (8" running is 4" half move, but 9" is 5" and only cost 2 more points).

-CON is the biggest bonus for figured characteristics, giving you ED, REC, END, and STN not to mention protecting you from being stunned

 

Some of these aren't as significant any more, and all of them probably seem really obvious to old time players, because we all studied Goodman's ideas and took them to heart decades ago but I think they matter a lot to new players, helping them see how to construct a more effective character.

 

 

 

Since this is a thread in Fantasy, lets keep in mind how useful some of these are in a fantasy game.

 

Rounding- Yes.  if you are making a mage, int 18 vs int 20 results in the same skill roll for Power Skill

 

Odd numbers-  If you use End (mine will) this is a good idea

 

Levels- Especially useful in fantasy where eventually you will have a host of spells or weapons you are good with!

 

Dex and Con -  Yes.  I will encourage at least Dex 11 and Con 13 for most

 

When you have 125-150 pts to play with.....

[IndianaJoe3]

17 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

_Always_ have a held action.  If you don't use it as a counter-attack, take a Recovery with it.  As soon as you use a held action, get another one as soon as you safely can.

 

Using a Held Action for a Recovery is explicitly banned from 4e onward.

[LoneWolf]

DEX does not mean you go first, it means you get to choose when you go.  Pay attention to holding actions and aborting. Going last on a phase and aborting the next to a defensive maneuver is incredibly effective.

 

Block few, dodge many.   
 

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

Using a Held Action for a Recovery is explicitly banned from 4e onward.

Silly  man, Duke only plays 2nd Edition, Hero. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Since this is a thread in Fantasy, lets keep in mind how useful some of these are in a fantasy game.

 

This is what I was thinking about yeah, how to specifically apply this kind of thing to fantasy

[Old Man]

Oh, dear.  Where to begin?

 

- If your group outnumbers the opposition, you can effectively boost everyone's DCV by 3 by having everyone hold actions and dodge, only attacking once all the adversaries have gone.

- You can do the same thing if your SPD is higher than your opponent's.

- Don't forget you can block with that large shield too.

- In heroic level games that use hit locations and/or crits, Flash, Darkness, grabs, and Entangles are excellent ways to set up opponents for a haymaker by a teammate.

- And if you're playing with hit locations, wear a helmet.

- For spells, pile on as many Limitations as you can get away with until you can get the real cost below some number that ends in .49 so it rounds down. 

- Noncombat spells especially benefit from Limitations.  So what if your 1d6 Cumulative Transform takes a full minute to cast?  It'll still get you through a castle wall in less than an hour.

- Technically there's no reason Side Effects can't be a beneficial effect.  If your GM won't let you use Healing, there's always Drain vs. COM or Flash vs. Taste.

- Or you can outsource the Side Effect with Area Effect Hole In The Middle.

- Seriously though, don't be afraid of Side Effect; even Drain vs. STUN or EB aren't that bad.  And you're going to use the saved points to buy up your Magic skill to 17-anyway.

- Want total immunity to melee attacks?  Flight is cheap.

- Certain Powers are extremely useful even at low active points.  Flight, Telekinesis, Stretching, Teleport, certain Senses, Flash, Entangle.

- Conversely, conventional attacks are kind of not worth it for spellcasters.  Why spend points on a killing attack when sharp sticks exist?  But do invest in an AOE attack to deal with swarms.

- Entangle is generally underrated.  Immobilize an adversary without killing him (on the rare occasions that's necessary).  Build barriers.  Drop opponents to DCV 0 if only for a phase. 

- Summoning (and Duplication) are expensive but fun, in the sense that they give you additional (and expendable) PCs to play.

- Mundanes should remember to exploit all the options available to them.  Trip that ogre!  Disarm the villain with the hellblade!  Do a move through if you're crossing the map anyway!

- Buy a skill up to some ridiculous level and point out to the GM that (for instance) you spent more points on Stealth than it would have cost to buy Invisibility.

 

If I remember any more I'll post them.

[Duke Bushido]

19 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

Using a Held Action for a Recovery is explicitly banned from 4e onward.

 

 

True, but ultimately, if I have a held action and act in Phase 4, and decide to use my held action in Phase 3 so I can recover on Phase 4, what is the effective difference? 

 

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

True, but ultimately, if I have a held action and act in Phase 4, and decide to use my held action in Phase e so I can recover on Phase 4, what is the effective difference? 

 

 

The difference is that you have gained options and flexibility.  There is a school of thought that all assets, like options and flexibility need to be accounted for and you should not be allowed to gain advantage in this way.

 

I think it is second generation old-school thinking, and I think that it reduces fun at the table by removing a bit of agency from the players and, for me, takes away from the tactical game of combat and utilising the peccadilloes of the speed chart...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its mostly the idea that an aborted phase is an emergency, an act of desperation.  It doesn't make sense to strain to recover.  You use an aborted phase for "yikes!" stuff, not "ahh, rest" stuff.

[Doc Democracy]

37 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think its mostly the idea that an aborted phase is an emergency, an act of desperation.  It doesn't make sense to strain to recover.  You use an aborted phase for "yikes!" stuff, not "ahh, rest" stuff.

Ah!  But we are talking held phases, not aborted ones.

 

The character has waited to see what is happening and whether they need to react to a situation but they didn't and so they recovered their breath a bit...

 

Sounds reasonable to me...

[IndianaJoe3]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

True, but ultimately, if I have a held action and act in Phase 4, and decide to use my held action in Phase 3 so I can recover on Phase 4, what is the effective difference? 

 

 

In your example, not much, because 3 and 4 are both common Phases. OTOH, you can't hold until a less common segment (1, 7, etc) when you'd be less likely to be interrupted.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:18 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

These are the entries from the Goodman School of Cost Efficiency.  They are actually longer and more detailed than I remember, about a 3rd of the page.  These are summaries:

 

-After a certain point, complications start to lose their effectiveness and become a net loss for your character (this was before 6th edition, when complications brought down your total overall character cost).

 

 

That one is also obsolete.  In early editions, the first two disadvantages (now complications) gave full points. The next two gave half points, then 1/4 point, and so on.  So if you had 5 20 point Hunteds, you received 20 + 20 + 10 + 10 + 5 points.

 

4e and onwards imposed maximum total disadvantages/complications and a maximum from any one type. 

 

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

Oh, dear.  Where to begin?

 

- If your group outnumbers the opposition, you can effectively boost everyone's DCV by 3 by having everyone hold actions and dodge, only attacking once all the adversaries have gone.

 

Exceptionally useful against a single powerful opponent - everyone delays, and whoever gets attacked uses a defensive action.  And, if that character still gets hit, back off and take a recovery or three!

 

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

- Noncombat spells especially benefit from Limitations.  So what if your 1d6 Cumulative Transform takes a full minute to cast?  It'll still get you through a castle wall in less than an hour.

 

Cumulative mental attacks with long castings + KO'd or captured opponents...

 

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

True, but ultimately, if I have a held action and act in Phase 4, and decide to use my held action in Phase 3 so I can recover on Phase 4, what is the effective difference? 

 

 

The bigger impact of the change is that you get the STUN and END back just before the start of your next phase, and the REC can be interrupted in the meantime.  This removed the tactic of (for a SPD 6 character, say) Holding the phase 4 action until the GM says "Ok, Phase 6", then saying "No, wait, at the very end of Phase 5, I use my held action to recover".  My own rule is that there are not banners waving around the combat scene to tell you that the breakpoint betweemn Segment 5 and 6 is approaching, so you don't get to back up once the clock ticks forward.  But that does require asking whether anyone wants to act now before saying "OK, Phase 6" to prevent someone getting cut off when they wanted to act based on flow of the situation, not a Magic Scoreboard flipping over from 5 to 6.

 

"I'll use the microsecond remaining between the very end of Segment 5 and the start of Segment 6 to catch my breath" does not seem very reasonable to me.

[Duke Bushido]

24 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

"I'll use the microsecond remaining between the very end of Segment 5 and the start of Segment 6 to catch my breath" does not seem very reasonable to me.

 

Agreed, but the Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness wasn't about reason so much as finding mechanics that could be lightly abused. 

 

Lightly. 

 

 

[BoloOfEarth]

On 2/17/2023 at 10:15 PM, Duke Bushido said:

True, but ultimately, if I have a held action and act in Phase 4, and decide to use my held action in Phase 3 so I can recover on Phase 4, what is the effective difference? 

 

The effective difference is that when recovering on Phase 4 rather than during a held action, then from Phase 4 until your next phase (which could be Phase 8 if you're SPD 3) you're at half DCV (with Placed Shots modifiers being halved as well) and any Constant powers that cost END (even if only to activate) are turned off while you're recovering, possibly making you a bit of a sitting duck.  (Which, to be fair, you'd have instead been a sitting duck until Phase 4 if you recovered on the prior Phase rather than holding your action, doing a non-recovery action on Phase 3, and then recovering on Phase 4.) 

 

Whereas if you could use your held action to recover, you'd only be a sitting duck for that fraction of a second at the very end of Phase 3 when nobody can attack you.  Hence, the rules not allowing you to do that.  

[Ninja-Bear]

About ties on rolls but I caught in 6th that if there is a tie say for grappling then the person with the higher STR should win the contest. i.e. STR 21 vs. STR 20 both roll 4D6 but if there is a tie then no latter if STR 21 was attacker or defender he wins. I like that rule. I think it works well for any edition. It gives a reason to have a slightly higher STR.

[Doc Democracy]

9 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Whereas if you could use your held action to recover, you'd only be a sitting duck for that fraction of a second at the very end of Phase 3 when nobody can attack you.  Hence, the rules not allowing you to do that.  

 

This is part of the action fuzziness in HERO.  For example, all your movement takes place in your phase.  If you are SPD 4, and decide on segment 3 to do your full move, 30m, then that all happens in segment 3, it does not stretch out until segment 5.  If you hold your action until segment 5, you get the full benefit of 30m movement.

 

If you can hold to the last fraction of a second to travel 30m, why not also get the full benefit of the recovery (as long as you have not used END or been harmed during that time)?

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

This is part of the action fuzziness in HERO.  For example, all your movement takes place in your phase.  If you are SPD 4, and decide on segment 3 to do your full move, 30m, then that all happens in segment 3, it does not stretch out until segment 5.  If you hold your action until segment 5, you get the full benefit of 30m movement.

 

If you can hold to the last fraction of a second to travel 30m, why not also get the full benefit of the recovery (as long as you have not used END or been harmed during that time)?

 

Doc

 

From a gamist perspective, because the "move all on your phase" model is a necessary compromise while "you can avoid virtually all of the negative aspects of a recovery during combat by declaring the recovery only after anything that might trigger or take advantage of those negative implications have passed" is not a game enhancer.

 

BTW, I don't allow "OK, Phase 6 then" to be altered by "No, wait, just before Segment 5 ends, I make a full move".  After "character X" takes an action on Phase 5, say at DEX 20, I would generally ask "OK, who's next to act?" If someone says "I move at DEX 18", great. If someone says "I take my held action", also great.  If no one says anything, the no one is doing anything other than watching the flow of the combat. They are still watching as Segment 5 transitions to Segment 6.

 

There are no bikini-clad models with signs that say "Phase 5 is ending" walking around the battlefield.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I like that rule. I think it works well for any edition. It gives a reason to have a slightly higher STR.

 

This is a good tip, the kind of thing Goodman would have brought up

 

Quote

There are no bikini-clad models with signs that say "Phase 5 is ending" walking around the battlefield.

 

But that would be fun

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

From a gamist perspective, because the "move all on your phase" model is a necessary compromise while "you can avoid virtually all of the negative aspects of a recovery during combat by declaring the recovery only after anything that might trigger or take advantage of those negative implications have passed" is not a game enhancer.

 

I don't think it is a game killer either.  I have softened to take a player-centric approach to the game and things that make the game "easier" for players that use the rules is good for me.