Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Bazza]

 

[Bazza]

Sif returning https://deadline.com/2020/12/sif-mcu-jaimie-alexander-thor-love-and-thunder-and-loki-1234655160/

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would have liked to see a Sif movie more than a Black Widow one.

[Lord Liaden]

I enjoy Jamie Alexander's Sif, but Natasha's back story is deeper, and MCU Widow has been more developed, and has greater audience recognition.

 

But does that mean we get Sif, Valkyrie, and Thor-powered Jane Foster in the same movie? That's the most super-powered estrogen this side of Endgame and Wonder Woman. It's cool that superhero movies have achieved that degree of gender balance.

[Starlord]

I 'wonder' if we'll get and MCU Wonder-Man someday....

[Scott Ruggels]

On 12/9/2020 at 12:04 AM, Tjack said:

 So, why not (steal) borrow WotC’s business model? 
Come up with a free downloadable EASY version of the rules, some characters based on the Avengers/Justice League/X-Men. (Since they’re the archetypes your potential players want) Toss in some easy to understand villains and a bank robbery or Viper raids the Govt. laboratory episode, and there you go.

For good measure include a discount code for a Players Handbook from the website.

We’ve been talking about this sort of intro to Championsfor years. Fantasy Hero Primer on the store downloads here, and that was a way to get people to play quickly. What happens is it get bogged down with character generation, and a lack of adventures. 

[Scott Ruggels]

So what did the Disney Investor Presentation present for the MCU, and did any of it not suck? 

[zslane]

Some very good trailers for the upcoming Disney+ MCU shows such as WandaVision, Falcon & Winter Soldier, and Loki. And a whole slate of new Disney+ shows were announced that we didn't know about before, like Secret Invasion, IronHeart, and Armor Wars. Christian Bale will be the God Butcher and the Fantastic Four movie has a director.

 

I think Ms. Marvel could do okay if it can get past the current #FixMsMarvel PR hurdle the SJWs have put in its path. I also think IronHeart could do well if Feige manages to make the character interesting and relevant in ways never achieved in the comics.

[Tjack]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

We’ve been talking about this sort of intro to Championsfor years. Fantasy Hero Primer on the store downloads here, and that was a way to get people to play quickly. What happens is it get bogged down with character generation, and a lack of adventures. 

   Again, look to the Pathfinder and D&D business models. Neither of their free versions include more than one or two adventures and only a few hand out characters.  Let potential new players jump in right away to adventure and the fun of role-play. After they’re interested is the time to show them the complexities of the game.   When you’re selling a sports car you get them in for a test drive first before you tell them about the cost.

   When I first started playing a buddy ran off a version of his Champions 3 book that had maybe 15 pages.  It served me well until I bought my own version of the Big Blue Book.  I didn’t need a lot to get started and back then there was only one store in the city of Boston (a pretty good sized college town) that sold Champions stuff.  Now as a company you have the option of selling directly to the public in ways that the old days couldn’t dream of.

   With Fantasy Hero you’re fighting not only the “new hot game” in Pathfinder but the brand name of the game that started it all in Dungeons & Dragons.  Why swim upstream?  Your core game is the best known in the genre.  A genre which is in fact on freaking fire!  Comic book companies are struggling certainly, but MAJOR MOTION PICTURES, TELEVISION & ALL FORMS OF COMPUTER GAMING are knocking themselves out bringing Superheroes to the public. 
   You once led the parade, it’s now time to jump back on the bandwagon.

If you want to move this conversation to somewhere more appropriate just let me know where.

[Old Man]

6 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Does your low opinion extend to Kevin Feige as well? And to Alan Horn who has allowed Feige free reign with the MCU?

 

Of course not, don't be ridiculous.  But if any megacorp could eventually screw up the MCU, it's Disney.

[Grailknight]

Disney showed that they know how not to screw up when they got rid of the guy who ran the TV division of the MCU.

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

So what did the Disney Investor Presentation present for the MCU, and did any of it not suck? 

Loki is working for the Tennessee Valley Authority! 

 

Representation at last!

[zslane]

29 minutes ago, Old Man said:

But if any megacorp could eventually screw up the MCU, it's Disney.

 

That's a little too cynical even for me. Over the last ten years Disney has shown a very shrewd lack of meddling in the MCU. Disney likes money and isn't about to knock over the MCU apple cart with so many billions to lose by doing so.

 

However, I will say that Disney is playing a tricky game by scheduling so much MCU content over such a short period of time. Either fans will continue to gobble it up and ask for more, or audiences will get tired of it and look elsewhere. The pandemic has created a huge surplus of pent up demand which Disney will be more than happy to fulfill with MCU movies once theaters open up again. So I think it will be several more years before the air goes completely out of the MCU's tires.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't want to see girl Thor any more than I want to see girl Iron Man, nor does most anyone else given the sales of those comics.  Marvel Cinema needs to avoid the disastrous path their print division has been following.  They already have interesting, fun female characters, lets see them explored in movies rather than cheap pandering knockoff versions of established characters.

[zslane]

I thought the Jane Foster as Thor story arc did quite well sales wise. Was that not true?

 

In any event I basically agree with you @Christopher R Taylor. As long as there is an Iron Man I don't see much point in an Iron Heart, unless she is going to be a member of some kind of Iron Family with Pepper Potts (Rescue) as mommy, Tony Stark (Iron Man) as daddy, and Uncle Rhodey (War Machine) to round out the cast.

 

I think the main reason why "Go woke, go broke," turned out to be so prescient is that the publishers made their diversity plays with poor writers and poorly-conceived characters/storylines. I think diversity could have been more organically introduced into Marvel canon had it been done with more care and attention to good writing. The goal isn't really so bad, it's the execution that sucks.

 

However, I will go on record--again--and say that I do not agree with "re-imagining" long-standing (dare I say, iconic) characters by gender-bending them, race-bending them, or giving them updated origin stories and rewriting their histories. If writers want to tell new stories for which existing characters don't fit, then they should invent entirely new characters. When given someone else's toys to play with they just end up breaking them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yup...it all started when two editors dropped the ball WAY back - imagine a Flash succeeding Jay Garrick and a non-android Human Torch.  We've been descending further into suck ever since, right?

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, zslane said:

I thought the Jane Foster as Thor story arc did quite well sales wise. Was that not true?

 

Female Thor is outselling the old Thor by 30 percent

 

2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

In any event I basically agree with you @Christopher R Taylor. As long as there is an Iron Man I don't see much point in an Iron Heart, unless she is going to be a member of some kind of Iron Family with Pepper Potts (Rescue) as mommy, Tony Stark (Iron Man) as daddy, and Uncle Rhodey (War Machine) to round out the cast.

 

I think the main reason why "Go woke, go broke," turned out to be so prescient is that the publishers made their diversity plays with poor writers and poorly-conceived characters/storylines. I think diversity could have been more organically introduced into Marvel canon had it been done with more care and attention to good writing. The goal isn't really so bad, it's the execution that sucks.

 

Absolutely.  It's not even all that unusual for characters to be recast.  How many Robins have we had?  Green Lanterns?  Doesn't seem like people minded all that much at the time.

 

2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

However, I will go on record--again--and say that I do not agree with "re-imagining" long-standing (dare I say, iconic) characters by gender-bending them, race-bending them, or giving them updated origin stories and rewriting their histories. If writers want to tell new stories for which existing characters don't fit, then they should invent entirely new characters. When given someone else's toys to play with they just end up breaking them.

 

As always, the problem (from the suits' view) is that there's all these established characters with established fans, and if they could just tweak the character or put it in a shock story, it'll increase sales...

 

Personally I have no problem with race- or gender-bending characters if it can be written well.  Thor was played by an alien for years.

[Tjack]

10 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

Female Thor is outselling the old Thor by 30 percent

 

 

Absolutely.  It's not even all that unusual for characters to be recast.  How many Robins have we had?  Green Lanterns?  Doesn't seem like people minded all that much at the time.

 

       Are you kidding me!  Fanboys lost their freaking little minds when those happened!  
   There were actual death threats against the guy writing the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern and let’s not forget “Death in the Family” where fans voted to kill Jason Todd.

    You’re remembering thru a rose colored lens, fans don’t like change and they complain that the stories are stale. Remakes always take a beating from fans at first.  It’s only now that a TV show like Enterprise is starting to have people say “it wasn’t so bad”  Star Trek shows like Discovery and Picard are take a beating when they first come out but in a few years passions cool and things get looked at objectively.  I’m not saying everything new is automatically great but I know not to let the uproar keep me from something I may someday like....and there will always be an uproar.

[Hugh Neilson]

There will always be some who wanted it to stay the old way.  Back to changing the lineup of the Avengers in the 1960's.

[Tjack]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

There will always be some who wanted it to stay the old way.  Back to changing the lineup of the Avengers in the 1960's.

  You mean there were people who DIDN’T like “Cap’s kooky quartet”?

[zslane]

I think Marvel Studios stands to make more money by introducing new characters and new franchises than trotting out the same old characters forever. And the roadmap they revealed at their investor presentation backs that up. The 2012 Avengers line-up will be giving way to a Young Avengers and other teams made up of entirely new characters, with maybe the occasional cameo by the "old guard" characters. That is the way forward. That is how creativity and commerce maximize their potential.

 

However, I'm willing to bet that only Kevin Feige truly sees it that way. The minute Feige steps down and retires, I fully expect Disney to abandon this winning strategy and reboot the entire MCU by, eventually, re-casting Tony Stark and all the others and "re-imagining" them for a new audience all over again. This will prove, at least to me, that the only force steering the MCU in the direction of quality and creative diversity is Feige and Feige alone (with a minor assist from Alan Horn who smartly stays out of the way for the most part).

[Greywind]

The whole thing about Azrael taking over as Batman was "why doesn't Batman kill?" No one really liked AzBats either.

[Matt the Bruins]

7 hours ago, zslane said:

I think the main reason why "Go woke, go broke," turned out to be so prescient is that the publishers made their diversity plays with poor writers and poorly-conceived characters/storylines. I think diversity could have been more organically introduced into Marvel canon had it been done with more care and attention to good writing. The goal isn't really so bad, it's the execution that sucks.

A prime example would be Allan Heinberg's and Matt Fraction's work on their respective Young Avengers series, which were highly diverse and socially conscious but concentrated first and foremost on telling good, entertaining stories. When there are talented creators interested in a project based on good ideas, the readership tends to appreciate it. Other efforts at inclusivity that I've noted either hired inexperienced writers who approached their titles agenda-first (like Gabby Rivera), or appeared to be insincere efforts that employed creators who were tone-deaf or outright mocking (Daniel Kibblesmith's cringeworthy New Warriors characters Snowflake and Safespace come to mind).

 

4 hours ago, Tjack said:

       Are you kidding me!  Fanboys lost their freaking little minds when those happened!  
   There were actual death threats against the guy writing the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern and let’s not forget “Death in the Family” where fans voted to kill Jason Todd.

Bear in mind that Marz didn't just debut a new Green Lantern, he turned the much-liked Silver Age Green Lantern into a murderous lunatic as part of the transition. Though I really think Kevin Dooley is to blame for that situation, with Marz just writing what he was ordered to.

[Tjack]

11 minutes ago, Matt the Bruins said:

A prime example would be Allan Heinberg's and Matt Fraction's work on their respective Young Avengers series, which were highly diverse and socially conscious but concentrated first and foremost on telling good, entertaining stories. When there are talented creators interested in a project based on good ideas, the readership tends to appreciate it. Other efforts at inclusivity that I've noted either hired inexperienced writers who approached their titles agenda-first (like Gabby Rivera), or appeared to be insincere efforts that employed creators who were tone-deaf or outright mocking (Daniel Kibblesmith's cringeworthy New Warriors characters Snowflake and Safespace come to mind).

 

Bear in mind that Marz didn't just debut a new Green Lantern, he turned the much-liked Silver Age Green Lantern into a murderous lunatic as part of the transition. Though I really think Kevin Dooley is to blame for that situation, with Marz just writing what he was ordered to.

   I wasn’t happy with what the writers did with the Hal Jordan character either....but these wack-a-doos wrote letters that said they were going to kill the writer and burn down his house.

   That being said, my main point was to dispute Old Man’s assertion that  “Doesn’t seem that people minded that much at the time.” 

[slikmar]

I don't mind a genderbended or race bended(?) character if they are playing the character as it should be. One thing MCU has been good at is we can all recognize what we read in the comics in Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Banner and the Hulk (untll Hulk was to afraid of Thanos to come out), etc.

It reminds me of an article from the Ben Affleck Daredevil (a movie I like more then most people do). They were trying to cast Kingpin, and all there meetings were "we need a guy just like Michael Clark Duncan but white. Finally someone said, why don't we use Duncan? He was a good Kingpin and fit the roll because he was still playing Wilson Fisk. I also thoroughly enjoyed D'Onofrio's Fisk.