[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

[archer]

41 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Might that assumption on your part represent a core distrust as well? 

 

Heh, I was a political blogger for 11+ years and had the reputation (in my very small circle) of having a fetish for accuracy.

 

I've known from the beginning not to trust what people on the internet say they've heard (even though I respect ScottishFox and don't think he'd intentionally try to mislead me). I certainly don't believe what other bloggers write, without trying to source it from at least two separate places, and I don't trust much of what TV anchors and talking heads without sourcing it from print media, government databases, etc. 

 

Most people have a bias, whether conscious or unconscious, and very few people , whether than in internet discussions or professionals in the media, go through the effort to give out all the details every time they talk about a story so that their audience (as it exists in that point in time) gets the complete details of that story.

 

You might say that I have a well-earned core of distrust.

[TrickstaPriest]

Bleh

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/935vyp/cop-threatened-to-kill-his-tenant-and-sell-their-child-over-rent-dispute?utm_source=vicecanadafbca

[Old Man]

Could someone remind me what ghastly crime Jacob Blake was arrested and tased for, prior to being shot and paralyzed?  Trespassing?  Domestic dispute?

[Lord Liaden]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:33 PM, Ragitsu said:

 

One works for the other. One has the power to ruin or end a life. The overall burden is clearly lopsided (as it ought to be).

 

I don't disagree, although armed citizens also have the power to end a life, and America has many of those. But that's beside the point. The relationship of public to police is a social contract between both sides, and right now neither side is honoring it due to lack of trust. Who deserves more of the blame for causing the situation isn't relevant, and dwelling on that exacerbates it. The situation won't change, and will deteriorate, unless and until both sides work together to repair the contract.

[archer]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:56 PM, archer said:

 

 

After he opened the car door, things got vastly more complicated.  

 

Blake started leaning over as soon as he opened the car door. I can't tell precisely when the first shot happened in relation to the location of Blake's body and limbs but it appears to be well after Blake got himself within range to retrieve of gun from either the pocket in the car door or out from under the seat.

 

In a traffic stop when the police think there's a good chance the person driving the car could be armed or will disobey instructions, the police get his hands outside of the car window then his entire body outside of the car ASAP not only to keep the guy from going for a gun but also to keep the police from thinking he might be going after a gun.

 

Here, you have a man who is deliberately disobeying a policeman who has a drawn gun pointed at him and the man is going into a place where people frequently store guns.

 

I can't tell what the policeman saw or thought he might have seen.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/08/26/jacob-blake-had-a-knife-in-his-car-when-he-was-shot-by-police-doj/#:~:text=Jacob%20Blake%20had%20a%20knife%20inside%20his%20vehicle%20when%20he,SUV's%20door%2C%20authorities%20revealed%20Wednesday.&text=The%20shooting%20unfolded%20after%20cops,t%20supposed%20to%20be%20there.

 

Blake admits he had a knife.

 

Police have found that knife and have it in evidence.

 

During the MSNBC convention coverage last night, the anchor repeatedly said that the knife was in the driver's side floorboard, which was the area Blake was leaning toward when he opened the car door. I didn't immediately find a news article which stated the exact location of the knife.

 

13 hours ago, Old Man said:

Could someone remind me what ghastly crime Jacob Blake was arrested and tased for, prior to being shot and paralyzed?  Trespassing?  Domestic dispute?

 

https://www.newsweek.com/jacob-blake-knife-car-kenosha-shooting-doj0-1527930

 

"Blake had a warrant issued for his arrest after he was charged with third-degree sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse in July."

 

At the time of the shooting, "officers arrived at the residence after a woman called police and said her boyfriend "was present and was not supposed to be on the premises."

 

Third degree sexual assault is defined in the law of that state as being "Whoever has sexual intercourse with a person without the consent of that person". 

 

There are no other possible violations under their law which could be classified as third degree sexual assault.

 

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/940/II/225

 

Most people speaking casually of that offense would refer to it as "rape". And apparently from the context of the story, Blake had returned to the home of the woman who he'd raped.

[ScottishFox]

13 hours ago, Old Man said:

Could someone remind me what ghastly crime Jacob Blake was arrested and tased for, prior to being shot and paralyzed?  Trespassing?  Domestic dispute?

 

He had a felony arrest warrant out for 3rd degree sexual assault.  There were a couple of misdemeanors on that arrest warrant as well (trespass and domestic violence).

 

Forbes has an article that very nicely summarizes key points. ( LINK )

• Officers were dispatched to the scene in response to a female caller reporting that her boyfriend was present and wasn’t supposed to be on the property, investigators say; lawyers for Blake’s family say he was “breaking up a fight between two women.”

• Court records show Blake was charged with third-degree sexual assault, criminal trespassing and disorderly conduct related to domestic abuse on July 6.

• Investigators say the officers attempted to arrest Blake using a taser, but were unsuccessful.

• When Blake then walked around his car, opened the driver’s side door and leaned forward, Sheskey grabbed onto Blake’s shirt and fired seven times into his back, investigators say.

A NewsWeek article has an eye witness (Raysean White) saying they heard the police shouting "Drop the knife!" before shooting him, but that he didn't see the knife himself.  The same witness said there was more fighting with police prior to the recordings starting.  They had wrestled him to the ground, punched him and tried to tase him.

 

If several police officers have taken you to the ground and tried to taser you - breaking loose to go for the knife in your car cannot be expected to end well.

 

I do blame the police department to a degree for not having officers more competent in CQB techniques.  He should never have been able to get to his feet with multiple officers trying to hold him down.  That's just a lack of physicality and skill which training would remedy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ragitsu]

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I don't disagree, although armed citizens also have the power to end a life, and America has many of those. But that's beside the point. The relationship of public to police is a social contract between both sides, and right now neither side is honoring it due to lack of trust. Who deserves more of the blame for causing the situation isn't relevant, and dwelling on that exacerbates it. The situation won't change, and will deteriorate, unless and until both sides work together to repair the contract.

 

I do not and cannot support an implied false equivalency. Nationally, there are many guns available overall, but police officers have state-enforced powers to get away with murder. Police officers operate in a gang that has their back; we know that "good cops" will cover for bad cops. Police officers enjoy grossly overpowered unions that are Republican backed. Police officers have a history of instigating protestors until riots erupt.

 

Police officers can legally rob you and there's very little you can do to legally reclaim that property (assuming you can even afford the process in the first place). Police officers can stop you and engage in harassment because "they don't like the look of you". Police departments have a history of racist policies (not to mention recruiting members of racist ideologies). Police departments can reject applicants of sufficiently high I.Q. (for the flimsiest of reasons). Meaningful reform is nearly impossible, because an admission of guilt from a P.D. is less likely than drawing blood from a stone.

 

So, no...the olive branch has to be extended from one side.

[TrickstaPriest]

Civil asset forfeiture is at a higher rate than literal theft... but white collar crime and wage theft is still king.

 

Also, had a friend nearly killed by officers - they were on the road in the desert, were pulled over, and their car was destroyed (literally damaged beyond driveability) while they searched for drugs.  Then they were abandoned by the side of the road with no help, water, or aid in sight.

 

Also had a friend stalked by federal officers - he was a very low tier helper for a technical project that got in a tangle with the feds.  They made sure to harass, threaten, stalk everyone directly related to him.  It only stopped when a wealthy coworker bought him a (much better) lawyer.

 

Also had a friend who was associated with that kid in this area a few years back who was 'mistakenly believed for having a bomb at a university'.

 

Kid liked making steampunk props.  But since he looked foreign, and someone saw him with a steampunk prop, they flipped out and raised hell.  Even though they were probably a student in the engineering dept.  And the chance of it being an actual incident was 1 in 1000 (even after seeing the prop)

[Pattern Ghost]

Meanwhile, in Seattle, some upstanding citizens tried to lock officers into our East Precinct by pouring quick drying cement over the door, then set the building on fire. It may sound like a bad 60's Batman villain plot, but it actually happened:

 

https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-police-alive-sealed-door/?

[Pattern Ghost]

2 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

I do blame the police department to a degree for not having officers more competent in CQB techniques.  He should never have been able to get to his feet with multiple officers trying to hold him down.  That's just a lack of physicality and skill which training would remedy.

 

This is my main issue with this shooting: The police officers had ample opportunity to attempt to re-engage him with less lethal means. The "victim" does seem to have set himself up to be shot, because he was trying to avoid going to jail on a felony warrant.

[TrickstaPriest]

  

2 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Meanwhile, in Seattle, some upstanding citizens tried to lock officers into our East Precinct by pouring quick drying cement over the door, then set the building on fire. It may sound like a bad 60's Batman villain plot, but it actually happened:

 

https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-police-alive-sealed-door/?

 

I have no doubt, and that those people should be dealt with.  But the general implication is that everyone should be punished, entire cities punished, hell entire states punished (ie- "pay the NG wages.  unless you are a place I need votes for"), for the situation.  That's the way media influences talk about, when calling out these incidents.  Normally that's a problem, but it's a huge problem when the President directly acts on their opinions.

 

I can talk about the inevitable problem it creates when we have leadership that constantly calls people, cities, and states who don't agree with them as "the enemy" and treats them as figurative terrorists for just existing, but that's a conversation for the political thread.  I bring all this up because of the commentary on the article just linked.  But there's a larger conversation on the literal use of federal power and resources to punish people who don't agree with the President, and there are two things I can bet on for the nature of these riots.

 

If Trump's twitter account never existed, I'd bet you a couple c notes that these protests would be 33% to 50% smaller.

 

If coronavirus had been tackled without creating the biggest unemployment in the history of our country, these protests would be 75% to 90% smaller.

 

If the response to these protests had been more careful and measured from the beginning instead of doing what 'kept up the authority', they would be 50-66% smaller.

 

So if we want to know how to actually resolve these issues, to stop the violence and protests, consulting the list here is a great start.  If we want to resolve the underlying issues... that will take longer.

 

 

 

And how can I forget my friend who was busted at a party (as a young kid) and coerced to roll specifically on the only black kids on the party.  Made to claim that those kids 'brought the drugs' (hint, all of them did).  Literal decades later he can't forget that he destroyed some kids' lives because, as a dumb terrified teen, he was made to 'roll on them'.

 

None of the people I've named as friends are online associates.  They are people who I have known for years, and almost all of which I've bought beer at a bar for.  Over a quarter of the people I've known for years in my current location have been abused by officers or major government-oriented authority figures who never have nor will ever face any kind of effect for it.

 

A less direct contact, a friend of my mother's had been tormented by her bf for literal years, with him calling, terrorizing, and threatening to take away her kid.  He is related to the local Sherriff as I recall correctly (or certainly a close friend), because he used their resources to torment, threaten, and stalk her with impunity, even having the police drop by on his behalf.  It took him literally calling her in the middle of an FBI training session, degrading, threatening, and humiliating her before a room of dozens of FBI agents undergoing training she was providing, for literally any action to happen at all.  But I still don't think she's out from under his behavior, with her kid, even now.

[ScottishFox]

30 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

Civil asset forfeiture is at a higher rate than literal theft.

 

This is one of the best complaints against law enforcement and, imo, blatantly unconstitutional.

[Pattern Ghost]

3 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

But the general implication is

 

I made no general implication. Be advised, though, the author of the article leans hard right. The basic facts are there, though.

[TrickstaPriest]

  

11 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

I made no general implication. Be advised, though, the author of the article leans hard right. The basic facts are there, though.

 

Yep, you haven't.  The people communicating that have, though, and I have some big issues with what they are characterizing because of that.

 

We have pretty explicit laws that don't include terrorists in their number (edit: I mean, in their protections).  So I find it wild that attempted murderers attacking police officers are called as 'domestic terrorists' in the article but many organizations with literal 'kill lists' of civilians are not. 

 

They aren't required to bring this up, but I don't think it requires much substantiation either that I wouldn't be able to get any admission/movement from them on that subject.  It's a bitter pill in my mouth.  The 'terrorists' involved in these events have little to no power in this country compared to the ones we are ignoring.

 

But that might be the distinction.

[Ragitsu]

11 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

  

 

I have no doubt, and that those people should be dealt with.  But the general implication is that everyone should be punished, entire cities punished, hell entire states punished (ie- "pay the NG wages.  unless you are a place I need votes for"), for the situation.  That's the way media influences talk about, when calling out these incidents.  Normally that's a problem, but it's a huge problem when the President directly acts on their opinions.

 

I can talk about the inevitable problem it creates when we have leadership that constantly calls people, cities, and states who don't agree with them as "the enemy" and treats them as figurative terrorists for just existing, but that's a conversation for the political thread.  I bring all this up because of the commentary on the article just linked.  But there's a larger conversation on the literal use of federal power and resources to punish people who don't agree with the President, and there are two things I can bet on for the nature of these riots.

 

There has been much spillover from Bush's response to September 11th, 2001; United States citizens are being "occupied" by the police the way United States soldiers occupy foreign lands.

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

So I find it wild that attempted murderers attacking police officers are called as 'domestic terrorists' in the article but many organizations with literal 'kill lists' of civilians are not. 

 

Well, that guy is a turd in regards to tossing around that kind of language. He also had a brief stint as a radio host up here. Instant channel change for me when his show came on. But to be fair, the article wasn't about the other organizations.

 

The larger issue that's driving a lot of the backlash is that the Seattle City Council has mishandled the situation and overreacted to a well-trained police force doing a good job of handling the initial rioting by tying their hands, treating them like criminals, and throwing their police force under the bus. We lost our first black female police chief over this. We had a city council member let protestors into City Hall. Seattle has an extremely activist far, far left City Council, and they've been running the place into the ground for years, starting with their handling of the homeless population, and probably before.

[TrickstaPriest]

2 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Well, that guy is a turd in regards to tossing around that kind of language. He also had a brief stint as a radio host up here. Instant channel change for me when his show came on. But to be fair, the article wasn't about the other organizations.

 

 

It is totally fair - I was suggesting he's not required to mention them, so its not like I expected any of that in the article.  I just know those 'other' organizations are more armed, organized, and have more political influence and support than the ones he's talking about 😕

 

 

3 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

The larger issue that's driving a lot of the backlash is that the Seattle City Council has mishandled the situation and overreacted to a well-trained police force doing a good job of handling the initial rioting by tying their hands, treating them like criminals, and throwing their police force under the bus. We lost our first black female police chief over this. We had a city council member let protestors into City Hall. Seattle has an extremely activist far, far left City Council, and they've been running the place into the ground for years, starting with their handling of the homeless population, and probably before.

 

Unfortunately I don't know enough to know what's going on in Seattle specifically, so I try not to comment.  I appreciate your details and viewpoint, though I don't know enough to agree or disagree. 

 

In terms of this topic I'm wary of the discourse coming from the top (the Presidency and this administration as a whole), because I've been hearing it for literally years now... and I'm not nearly as surprised as I should be that things are this divisive.  Hence my thoughts on some simple things - like a single twitter account not existing would probably have eased about half the animosity and tension we have today.  But that's a little more political than we need to get on this thread.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

I do not and cannot support an implied false equivalency.

 

 

Quote

So, no...the olive branch has to be extended from one side.

 

As I said, I don't disagree with you. The police making the first move at reconciliation would be fair. As you yourself point out, it's as likely as blood from a stone. At this point even if they did sincerely extend that branch, it would be slapped away.

 

Picking a side to blame is a non-starter. I think something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission post-apartheid may be necessary. Have a separate, impartial body get everything out in the open and on public record, so all Americans can acknowledge the facts and come to terms with them.

[Ragitsu]

26 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

At this point even if they did sincerely extend that branch, it would be slapped away.

 

They ought to offer the whole damn tree; it is far more difficult to swat that aside.

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

They ought to offer the whole damn tree; it is far more difficult to swat that aside.

 

How?  What can the police do  to extend even an olive branch, that would be trusted?  You know the old aphorism...1000 attaboys == promotion, raise.  999 attaboys, one Aw ****....you're fired.  That's the situation we're in.  Good police work for weeks, gets blown away by one bad one...and it doesn't matter now *where* that bad action takes place.  And the police have legitimate work to do.  I totally agree that it has to be done better, that George Floyd and Breonna Taylor are scathing indictments of police abuse...but there is a lot of Very Bad Stuff going on out there too.  The police need to be redirected, not declawed, defanged, and neutered.

 

At this point, our society is hyper-allergic...we don't get a red spot from a bee sting, we enter anaphylactic shock on a *light* sting.  It isn't the black community;  it's a broader impact of the hyper-polarization that's developed over the last 20-odd years.  And let's face it, there are plenty of demagogues who'll capitalize on any opportunity to turn the screws that they want to turn.  And they don't care about the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  QUITE the opposite;  they only want those portions that serve their purpose.

 

Also, right now...trying to start that process is, IMO, impossible.  As long as Trump rules, no steps forward can happen.  He is fundamentally divisive.  Blacks are not, by and large, His People.  And they know it.  He empowers racism.  How can a national dialogue be held under those conditions?  And a local dialogue isn't enough...because any progress there gets blown away by actions elsewhere.

 

 

[csyphrett]

I have to agree with Cleve. Blake might have been a good shooting if it had happened any other time. Right now when you have five or six what looks like police murders, riot police shooting people in the face, police chiefs posing for photos and then turning the dogs loose, and the Kenosha police department basically allowing someone to flee after another shooting, it comes across that the police in this case didn't know what they were doing, or are just crap in general.

 

Maybe there should be a better standard of training to weed out bullies, and cowards. I don't know.

 

My brother was in the same situation once where he was grappling with someone. He shot the guy one time in the leg. He told me he thought about shooting the guy in the face, but felt a bullet in the leg would settle the problem. 

CES    

 

 

[TrickstaPriest]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Also, right now...trying to start that process is, IMO, impossible.  As long as Trump rules, no steps forward can happen.  He is fundamentally divisive.  Blacks are not, by and large, His People.  And they know it.  He empowers racism.  How can a national dialogue be held under those conditions?

 

Pretty much why I say without his twitter account, this would be half of what it is now.

 

There's video of the man who nearly lost his arm, apparently of him managing to manually pinch an artery (maybe?) while walking people how to use a tourniquet from his own backpack on his own arm.

 

There's a presumption that all of the people shot deserved it, or were some sort of BLM antagonizor, or justice somehow was necessarily served.  Perhaps showing people a victim struggling to save his own life (or at least his arm) may get that through to someone.

[Pariah]

The WNBA's Washington Mystics wore these warm-ups before their scheduled game Wednesday night:

 

 

[unclevlad]

Edgy shirts...

 

But I wish they'd picked a better case.  This one's had big question marks from the get-go, and obviously 7 shots to the back at point blank range is extremely problematic.

[archer]

58 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Edgy shirts...

 

But I wish they'd picked a better case.  This one's had big question marks from the get-go

 

Yeah, the WNBA wearing shirts in support of an accused rapist...if someone had told me that two weeks ago, I wouldn't have believed it even if he'd tacked on the phrase "gunned down in the back by a cop".