[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

[Lord Liaden]

No significant change to society was ever accomplished by just asking for it.

[Ragitsu]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

No significant change to society was ever accomplished by just asking for it.

 

 

[Cygnia]

Cops’ posts to private Facebook group show hostility, hate

[pinecone]

1 hour ago, Cygnia said:

Cops’ posts to private Facebook group show hostility, hate

Sad, but not a supprise in any way...

[Starlord]

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Starlord said:

 

The Fox News headline for this calls it “theorizing” that kneeling on a man’s neck for ten minutes could have killed him. Also points out that the police chief is black in the second paragraph of the story. 
 

In case anyone wonders why this problem isn’t going away any time soon. 

[Cygnia]

Cops Caught on Video Holding a Black Army Lieutenant at Gunpoint, Then Pepper-Spraying Him

[wcw43921]

Kim Potter Charged With Manslaughter In Shooting Of Danute Wright

 

This is the 26-year veteran police officer who mistook her firearm for her taser.

[Iuz the Evil]

3 minutes ago, wcw43921 said:

Kim Potter Charged With Manslaughter In Shooting Of Danute Wright

 

This is the 26-year veteran police officer who mistook her firearm for her taser.

Sounds like the correct charge. Criminal negligence resulting in death.

[unclevlad]

The surprising aspect is that the charge has been filed rather quickly, comparatively.  Feels like, anyway.

[dmjalund]

I wander if we would get such a result if the officer was male

[Iuz the Evil]

22 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

I wander if we would get such a result if the officer was male

Given the political implications concurrent with this charge, I would guess at a minimum...

[Ragitsu]

Doesn't a standard-issue 9x19mm handgun weigh much more than a TASER?

[Old Man]

3 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

Doesn't a standard-issue 9x19mm handgun weigh much more than a TASER?

Almost twice as much IIRC. Also, a black handgun does not look like a yellow taser. But I didn’t even see a need to taze the kid let alone shoot him. 

[Cygnia]

Hell, even by feel, taser handles are different than handguns!

[wcw43921]

From the video of the shooting, she seemed genuinely surprised that she'd shot him.  It appears to be a genuine mistake by the last person one would expect to make such a mistake.  Such mistakes, however, do happen--and sometimes with much more catastrophic results.

[Iuz the Evil]

I would expect those differences in weight and feel to be a key in the prosecution’s case establishing criminal negligence. Along with training previously provided aimed at preventing exactly this sort of situation. And her confession that she “shot him” immediately after the incident.

 

Her career is over and she will be prosecuted. The Chief of Police is done professionally. Mayor seems to maybe be up next. It’s definitely not an accountability free situation, response seems swift and the charge seems to match the facts as they’ve been reported.

[Cygnia]

[Pattern Ghost]

Stress reactions will be factored in.

 

Before I go into that, let me just preface it by saying this wasn't a situation I'd find stressful enough to elicit such reactions, and not one I'd expect a veteran police officer to find highly stressful.

 

Given that she had an stress reaction, a few things are going to happen:

 

1. Threat focus: People will tunnel on the threat, and not look at the weapon. In the vast majority of shootings, people instinctively point shoot.

2. Adrenal response: Weight and shape of handle are not going to register. At all.

3. Muscle memory: Most officers practice drawing their sidearm a LOT more than drawing their TASER. I noticed in the video that one of the officers had his sidearm on his strong side, and the TASER in a crossdraw. If that's the standard setup, then the department has them using the SAME HAND to draw BOTH weapons. So, which one is going to get drawn under stress? The one you've practiced most with.

 

I'd be surprised if these points didn't come up in the officer's defense.

 

The real question on my mind, is why do we have a veteran officer so jumpy they have a panic reaction instead of a measured reaction?

 

The department in question is going to be held accountable for that, and probably number 3 above. I expect them to be forced to settle.

 

The officer needs to be removed and encouraged to find a lower-stress career at the minimum. I'm not seeing any criminal charge that I think would stick, but I think she better start checking her union benefits for legal coverage when she gets sued by the family.

 

[dmjalund]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Given the political implications concurrent with this charge, I would guess at a minimum...

I was thinking she might get less union support because she's a woman

[Iuz the Evil]

32 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

I was thinking she might get less union support because she's a woman

That’s possible, more likely to play out in the funding for legal defense than the charges though. The District Attorney isn’t likely to care how the Union feels, only in how winnable the case is and their re-election.

 

 edit: apparently she was the Union president in 2019. Union support is not her problem right now.

[Iuz the Evil]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/no-criminal-charges-for-officer-who-shot-capitol-rioter-ashli-babbitt-11618423059?st=s3v1a22uwwolj8z&reflink=article_copyURL_share
 

This also seems a reasonable outcome of the legal process to me, given the circumstances. 
 

She was part of crowd breaking down a barricade where members of the senate and possibly the Vp were being protected. She was warned to stop. She jumped through and was met with appropriate force. Pretty much what I’d expect.

[archer]

6 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Sounds like the correct charge. Criminal negligence resulting in death.

 

Manslaughter in the first degree is out. The prosecution would have to prove intent or that she drew her weapon and discharged it while attempting to commit some other crime. That didn't happen

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20

 

Manslaughter in the Second degree: "A person who causes the death of another by...the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another"

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205

 

That sounds right. Looking into it, an explanation of that crime from the University of Minnesota:

 

"Reckless involuntary manslaughter is a killing supported by the criminal intent element of recklessness. Recklessness means that the defendant is aware of a risk of death but acts anyway. Negligent involuntary manslaughter is a killing supported by the criminal intent element of negligence. Negligence means that the defendant should be aware of a risk of death, but is not. This category includes many careless or accidental deaths, such as death caused by firearms...."

 

In this case, the defendant knows that she's carrying a deadly weapon, knows that discharging into someone can kill them, drew her weapon on purpose, but the wrong weapon accidentally, and discharged it into the victim deliberately without checking to make sure she had the correct weapon in hand.

 

That's textbook 2nd degree manslaughter in Minnesota.

https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/9-6-manslaughter/

 

She didn't deliberately screw up her life and career or deliberately kill the guy. She just killed the guy.

 

2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Stress reactions will be factored in.

 

Before I go into that, let me just preface it by saying this wasn't a situation I'd find stressful enough to elicit such reactions, and not one I'd expect a veteran police officer to find highly stressful.

 

Given that she had an stress reaction, a few things are going to happen:

 

1. Threat focus: People will tunnel on the threat, and not look at the weapon. In the vast majority of shootings, people instinctively point shoot.

2. Adrenal response: Weight and shape of handle are not going to register. At all.

3. Muscle memory: Most officers practice drawing their sidearm a LOT more than drawing their TASER. I noticed in the video that one of the officers had his sidearm on his strong side, and the TASER in a crossdraw. If that's the standard setup, then the department has them using the SAME HAND to draw BOTH weapons. So, which one is going to get drawn under stress? The one you've practiced most with.

 

I'd be surprised if these points didn't come up in the officer's defense.

 

 

That'll all be brought up, mainly because the defense team has nothing else. But all of that is only a defense in the court of public opinion. It isn't a legal defense that's going to absolve her of the crime.

 

It might help with sentencing which can be up to 10 years in jail plus a fine of somewhere between zero and $20,000 (that fine doesn't count toward the civil case the family will file).

 

But aside from that, you're right. The threat focus and adrenal response are formidable things, regardless of your nature and, I suspect, are still formidable things regardless of training. I haven't experienced them in police work but I have experienced them. 

 

2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

The real question on my mind, is why do we have a veteran officer so jumpy they have a panic reaction instead of a measured reaction?

 

 

Yeah, I haven't heard much about the nature of the call that started the incident and I'd be interested to see the hours of body cam footage leading up to the incident. I don't think it'll help her in the trial but it might help us understand.

 

And it could have been something that happened to her outside of work that day. A work incident days ago. Or she may have been attacked recently. Or seen a friend killed recently. Or have been almost run over recently.

 

My wife in watching the video says it's clear to her that the suspect was trying to drive off and that the officer had only seconds to act. I've only watched the video once but that wasn't my impression at all. It looked like to me that the officers had control of the situation and that she had plenty of time to have leisurely drawn her taser, looked at it, sighted the suspect, etc. before firing.

 

 

[Pattern Ghost]

3 minutes ago, archer said:

And it could have been something that happened to her outside of work that day. A work incident days ago. Or she may have been attacked recently. Or seen a friend killed recently. Or have been almost run over recently.

 

Or she's just not cut out for a job with that stress level.

 

5 minutes ago, archer said:

Recklessness means that the defendant is aware of a risk of death but acts anyway.

 

I doubt this will be proven. She thought she was deploying a TASER, not a firearm, so the risk of death she was aware of was practically zero.

 

6 minutes ago, archer said:

It isn't a legal defense that's going to absolve her of the crime.

 

Absolution is another matter altogether. She done f---ked up and cost a person their life. There won't be absolution for her, likely including from herself. She'll have to live with herself, and overwhelming negative public opinion. Her own family will likely never look at her the same way again.

 

I'd be surprised, however, if she faces any kind of criminal penalty. It was a mistake. There's no intent. No intent, no violent crime.

[archer]

41 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I'd be surprised, however, if she faces any kind of criminal penalty. It was a mistake. There's no intent. No intent, no violent crime.

 

As I pointed out earlier, Minnesota has two different manslaughter laws on the books: one is manslaughter with intent, the other is manslaughter without intent (which is the crime she's being charged with).