Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Old Man]

Geez, fivethirtyeight's map has Arizona, Iowa, and Ohio as light blue now instead of pink. And even Florida is a darker blue, though I'm not sure if that's because it's underwater.

[Pattern Ghost]

Listening to clip of Michelle Obama speech about sexual harassment and Trump. Holy crap. Very good speech*, amazing delivery.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Not so good for Trump.

[Lord Liaden]

Michelle Obama could have her own career in politics, if she wants one. (And I'd be astonished if someone in the Democratic apparatus hasn't already raised the issue with her.)

[megaplayboy]

Dear lord, why would she want to go through all that bull-pucky all over again? Let someone else take their turn at the involuntary mudbath.

[Badger]

Let's place bets:

 

a) This does nothing to his chances.  He's successfully created a vaccine for moral outrage.

b ) Trumps official response will make the ending of "Scarface" look like the ending of Forrest Gump.

c) This finally puts an end to his run and he returns to his tower - secure in the knowledge that he was cheated of his victory and that he has done nothing wrong. He spends the rest of his life proving it.

d) Trump has leaked all this himself - terrified to continue and too proud to step aside.

 

B is a given, so pair it up with another option....

 

What about option E: After Hillary becomes President, Trump and Bill Clinton take a road trip to see every bordello and strip club on the East Coast. (possibly coinciding with option D)

[Lord Liaden]

Since the key issue of this election has turned to the character of the candidates, I can't help wondering where we would be if Bernie Sanders had won the Democratic nomination. I noticed quite a few people questioning his platform, but never his integrity.

[megaplayboy]

I think there'd be a lot more red-baiting, hippie-bashing, rants about "political correctness"(i.e., the expectation that everyone is deserving of a basic level of decency and respect) and Big Government taking over your life and jacking up your tax rates. Bernie's health and mental fitness would be questioned, Trump was calling him "Crazy Bernie". Also, the Republican establishment would see Sanders' agenda as even more threatening and would more readily line up behind Trump. I'm not sure Bernie would be as willing to run negative ads and get his hands as dirty fighting Trump, either. So I'm not sure he'd be performing better against Trump in a general election.

[Ranxerox]

Impossible to say.  Bernie Sanders was treated with kids gloves throughout the entire primary.  Hillary knew she would need both him and his followers so she never got too deep into mudslinging.  The Republicans treated him with kid gloves because he was hurting Hillary so it wasn't in their interest to undermine him.

 

Bernie Sanders is both a human being a career politician.  To be human is make mistakes and to be a politician is tell lies and to make compromises.  These are just facts of life.  Please don't think that he is a saint.  Saints don't make it into congress much less spend 25 years there.  Just because we don't know what his sins have been does not mean that he is completely free of them.

 

Based on his behavior during the campaign I am inclined to believe that Bernie Sanders is a good man, but a good man the same way that Hillary Clinton is a good woman.  That is to say a good man in spite of flaws, not a good man in absences of flaws.

[pinecone]

Impossible to say.  Bernie Sanders was treated with kids gloves throughout the entire primary.  Hillary knew she would need both him and his followers so she never got too deep into mudslinging.  The Republicans treated him with kid gloves because he was hurting Hillary so it wasn't in their interest to undermine him.

 

Bernie Sanders is both a human being a career politician.  To be human is make mistakes and to be a politician is tell lies and to make compromises.  These are just facts of life.  Please don't think that he is a saint.  Saints don't make it into congress much less spend 25 years there.  Just because we don't know what his sins have been does not mean that he is completely free of them.

 

Based on his behavior during the campaign I am inclined to believe that Bernie Sanders is a good man, but a good man the same way that Hillary Clinton is a good woman.  That is to say a good man in spite of flaws, not a good man in absences of flaws.

Well said! I'd even go so far as to say that a person without flaws isn't human though that Might be an overstatement...

[BoloOfEarth]

Bernie Sanders is both a human being a career politician.  To be human is make mistakes and to be a politician is tell lies and to make compromises.  These are just facts of life.  Please don't think that he is a saint.  Saints don't make it into congress much less spend 25 years there.  Just because we don't know what his sins have been does not mean that he is completely free of them.

 

While I tend to agree with what you've said, I do find it incredibly sad and a sign of these polarizing times that "making compromises" is seen as a flaw.

 

And please don't feel that I'm singling you out on this, Ranxerox.  It was only on the third or fourth reading of your post that it occurred to me that it should be expected of a politician to make compromises for the common good.  So initially my mind was apparently thinking the same thing as was posted and nodding along.

[BoloOfEarth]

And to be clear, I fully agree about humans making mistakes and politicians lying, and that not knowing Bernie's sins doesn't mean he's sinless.

[megaplayboy]

Politics has been called "the art of compromise", "the art of persuasion", and "the art of the possible". It's also been said that "Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made." Functional multiparty democratic governance is completely dependent upon good faith and fair dealing between the parties. Without it, things gradually deteriorate and fall apart.

[aylwin13]

<SNIP> ... good faith and fair dealing between the parties. <SNIP>

 

And there's been far too little of this for way too long.

 

It has little to do with representing the masses, and much to do with "us" trying to beat down "them".

[megaplayboy]

And there's been far too little of this for way too long.

 

It has little to do with representing the masses, and much to do with "us" trying to beat down "them".

There's always been that element in partisan politics, but compromise wasn't a dirty word until sometime in the past 20 years or so. Reagan made deals, Clinton made deals, but since about 1996, it's been perpetual war.

[megaplayboy]

Trump now approaching 1/4 of a Cosby Unit. A Cosby Unit is roughly 40-60 accusers. 10 Cosby Units equals roughly 1 Savile, after the notorious Jimmy Savile, who has the dubious/infamous distinction for being the all-time record holder for most alleged sexual assaults/molestations by a public figure or celebrity(450, according to wiki).

[Cancer]

Could be. My ballot (WA has gone to all postal voting) has not yet come, and I don't expect it for another week or so.

Official voter's pamphlet came in the mail yesterday, so the ballot should be no more than a week off.

[gewing]

I probably didn't explain what I'm getting at too clearly.

 

I'm going with the assumption that she's "guilty" of everything she's been accused of/investigated for.  It's either that, or you have to take the massive number of accusations and level of investigation into account when looking at any singular issue that you think she may actually be guilty of....which I fear is too brief of a statement to make sense....so I'll try to elaborate.

 

Case 1:  she's guilty of all or most of the things she's been accused of.  She's just powerful enough or good enough at politics to get away with them.  This isn't a matter of the ends justifying the means, it's just a very powerful (competent) politician. One who is able to do whatever they want.  Worrying concept until you look at her record -- "whatever she wants" appears to be generally good.  Fighting for child welfare, education, fairly balanced tax plans, even a relatively pragmatic approach to international politics that combined both US interests and diminishing of conflict.  Of particular note is that you don't find a track record of evil or corrupt/self-serving acts.  

 

Case 2: she's innocent of all or most of the things she's been accused of.  This changes things substantially.  If she's not getting away with all of this stuff because she's just that powerful, then it means that the investigations and scrutiny that she has faced have legitimately tried and failed to turn up any actionable indiscretions on her part. Which is kind of extraordinary -- it means she is fundamentally honest in a way that we don't give many politicians credit for.  It changes how you look at any individual accusation/investigation.  The email scandal has to be viewed not from the perspective of someone too powerful to take on, but from the perspective of someone who has been accused time and again by opposition politicians looking for something that they can use to take her down.  Everything was examined (yes, even the deleted 33k)...and they couldn't find anything actionable.

 

Personally, I find Case 2 more plausible.  

 

On the email side, a local friend used to work with the NSA in classification and has had some interesting input into what constitutes an actionable breach.  It puts the FBIs statements in perspective and makes them understandable -- not as "she's too powerful to take down" but more exactly what they said, "she didn't perform any actions which should be prosecuted, though she was extremely careless in her handling of sensitive information".  He went over far worse instances of mishandling (by far less powerful individuals) which were not actionable.

I agree the press conference sounded more as if anyone else would have been prosecuted, but...  

 

I know the penalties I could face if I screw up with HIPAA    data, I am surprised the standard is so low for handling classified information.   And iirc I DID say the Bush White house screwed up handling of emails and their deletion.  I am generally an equal opportunity basher.  

 

 

Someone at work tried going down the list of accusations against her.  I mocked him for the "53 murders" claim, but he did remind me of the Filegate scandal.   That was weird.   EITHER, she was very problematic in using files and then RECKLESS in leaving them in her office, or someone tried to frame her for such activities.   

 

I just don't know, but it still bothers me.  

 

I

[gewing]

In the end, this is why I voted for Hillary Clinton today (early voting just started).  That and I just don't think he can do the job.  I imagine many, many scenarios in the situation room where he completely ignores the advice and knowledge of every General and Admiral in the room.

 

PS:  Am I the first herophile to vote? 

Supreme court picks, specifically pro 2nd amendment judges, are the only reason I can see to vote for Trump.   THe idea of him "in charge" in the Situation room is probably the one that gives me the most nightmares.   I will NOT be voting for him.  

[gewing]

I hear many political analysts predicting an implosion of Republican candidates in the next round of congressional elections, as fallout from this disastrous campaign, which could result in big gains for the Democrats in the Senate and House. If it occurs that might give Clinton a window of support to push through her agenda.

I pray this does NOT occur.  there are reasons I want a divided power structure

[gewing]

Well said! I'd even go so far as to say that a person without flaws isn't human though that Might be an overstatement...

IIRC Lincoln said something about men with few vices usually having few virtues...

found it

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues. Abraham Lincoln

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin161243.html

[Nolgroth]

There's always been that element in partisan politics, but compromise wasn't a dirty word until sometime in the past 20 years or so. Reagan made deals, Clinton made deals, but since about 1996, it's been perpetual war.

 

Ain't that the truth.

[Simon]

I agree the press conference sounded more as if anyone else would have been prosecuted, but...  

 

I know the penalties I could face if I screw up with HIPAA    data, I am surprised the standard is so low for handling classified information.   And iirc I DID say the Bush White house screwed up handling of emails and their deletion.  I am generally an equal opportunity basher.  

 

 

Someone at work tried going down the list of accusations against her.  I mocked him for the "53 murders" claim, but he did remind me of the Filegate scandal.   That was weird.   EITHER, she was very problematic in using files and then RECKLESS in leaving them in her office, or someone tried to frame her for such activities.   

 

I just don't know, but it still bothers me.  

 

I

Here's the thing that keeps getting glossed over in all of this:  the private email server vs. State Dept. email server doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the handling of classified information.

 

If the email server had been in the hands of the State Dept. from the outset (something which HRC had actually been going for and requested the NSA's help with, but was turned down...so she ended up using a private server that was setup by the secret service for Bill), it would have still been public/non-protected.  It's a PUBLIC EMAIL SERVER -- not part of the protected network.  That's just how the inter tubes work.

 

The whole non-scandal was about auditing -- having access to the emails to check up on her.

 

Ostensibly, there's the possibility for real-time audits within gov't-controlled systems...with data exfiltration controls...but those _still_ don't exist on the State Department's public-facing systems....so the sole difference between her running her emails through the State Dept. systems and her private systems is auditing and data preservation...which the State Dept. is pretty bad about historically.

 

As it stands, all of the emails that she sent have been analyzed (including the deleted 33k -- they were primarily personal or duplicates of emails previously turned over).  The extent of the improper information?  Those ( C ) connotations in some of the emails that were sent to her (and which she replied to).  The content of those emails?  Call notes.  Which become immediately declassified as soon as the call happens or is set to happen (the nature of the State Department's work).

[Badger]

I pray this does NOT occur.  there are reasons I want a divided power structure

 

True, the one thing that let me live through a Clinton presidency, is the GOP having at least the House, to nullify certain policies I might find distasteful.

[Badger]

Anyway, my mother's sister who lives in Carolina is pretty much planning on writing in herself.

 

Wellll,   she would tell like it is.  And probably better to quote in paper than on live TV. 

[Armitage]

There's always been that element in partisan politics, but compromise wasn't a dirty word until sometime in the past 20 years or so. Reagan made deals, Clinton made deals, but since about 1996, it's been perpetual war.

 

 

It seemed to really become an issue starting with the 2008 campaign, when a lot of Republican campaigns were run on the platform of Democrats being evil, Communist, baby kicking, Grandma killing monsters out to destroy America in order to fire up their base, particularly what became the Tea Party.  Unfortunately, that then left more reasonable Republicans unable to negotiate with Democrats for fear of being condemned as traitors and losing support.

Even now, Sean Hannity regularly complains on his show about how Republicans in the House and Senate never stood up to President Obama and caved to every demand he made.  I'm honestly not sure what reality he lives in.