Badger Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Help me figure this out--both candidates were allegedly equally bad 5 or 6 months ago. Since then, A LOT more bad stuff has come out about Trump than about Clinton. Shouldn't it logically follow that, as of now, one candidate is clearly worse than the other? I mean, come on guys. I know you don't like her, but...seriously! What's it gonna take to simply acknowledge the obvious? I have t be honest, after 20 years, the best she can hope for from me, is a non-vote. Which she already had beforehand. I really don't feel like voting for a lesser evil anymore (I am convinced we got Trump/Clinton because this has been our argument for so long). I decided at this point, even the lesser evil has to nominally earn my vote. Assuming she is the lesser evil, Trump being Trump is not nominally earning my vote. I know she had a steep road with her baggage to earn it. But, it is what it is. Note: I have thought about throwing a vote to the Constitutional Party, assuming it is on the VA ballot and I feel like researching them to know what I would be getting myself into. I also have to admit while I don't have any particular issue of her Senatorship, I was not enamored with her Sec of State time, email or not. But, if she wins, I am willing to start over assuming she was playing to Obama's philosophy, and with her in charge playing it slightly differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I have t be honest, after 20 years, the best she can hope for from me, is a non-vote. Which she already had beforehand. I'm okay with that. I'm just wondering what it will take, revelation-wise, to get a concession that the orange guy with bad hair is unambiguously worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Well, several women have come out alleging sexual assaults of the type he boasted about on tape, and his own daughter admits that he used to "inspect" underage naked Miss Universe contestants in the dressing room. He has been sued on numerous occasions for various types of fraud, sometimes settling out of court. On the other hand is a woman who has been accused of all sorts of wrongdoing but never even charged let alone prosecuted. Furthermore, while she is not what I would call an inspirational orator, she's the most qualified candidate since 1988--three years as SoS, eight years as a (very popular) senator from New York, eight more years in the White House during which she crafted legislation to provide health insurance for children, and plenty of legal experience before that. Is she well connected? Hell yeah. More importantly, what is she going to do with those connections, assuming she wins? Raise the minimum wage. Improve on Obamacare. Reduce taxes on the middle class. Appoint sane humans to the SCOTUS. Fix student loans! Somebody stop this crazy woman! As for this not being a binary choice... well, actually, it kind of is. That's what happens with FPTP voting; it's game theory. Netzilla and aylwin13 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I suspect the allegations against Trump vis a vis sexual misconduct will make Bill look like a baby faced novice. gewing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 More importantly, what is she going to do with those connections, assuming she wins? Raise the minimum wage. Improve on Obamacare. Reduce taxes on the middle class. Appoint sane humans to the SCOTUS. Fix student loans! Minor correction: These are the things she says she's going to do. She's going to meet as much resistance as, if not more, Obama in getting anything done. There's also the dubious value of campaign promises. Interestingly enough, one of the fact checking sites I scanned after the last election said that Obamacare already has all of the provisions she was talking about as fixes during the second poo-flinging contest debate. I didn't fact check the fact checkers, though. Anyone have any insight on that? I'm curious, but frankly too tired from running around getting ready for bad weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 If I have the choice between two rotten apples, I am not choosing the slightly less rotten one. I'll pick an orange instead. 薔薇語 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Minor correction: These are the things she says she's going to do. She's going to meet as much resistance as, if not more, Obama in getting anything done. There's also the dubious value of campaign promises. Oh, absolutely. But she'll at least try. And compared to what the GOP has in store? These guys are talking about disbanding the IRS and they're deadly serious. Their objective is nothing short of crippling the federal government. That is not an exaggeration. Shadow Hawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Feds believe Russia hacking Florida elections process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 It is probably good that the 'Trump must step aside' talk is dying down. It seems to me that at this point Clinton needs to crush Trump and get a mandate in order to effectively govern the next 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 If I have the choice between two rotten apples, I am not choosing the slightly less rotten one. I'll pick an orange instead. Trump is the orange, at least visually. I think a lot of people are wishing for a fresh pear to vote for. Tom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Minor correction: These are the things she says she's going to do. She's going to meet as much resistance as, if not more, Obama in getting anything done. I hear many political analysts predicting an implosion of Republican candidates in the next round of congressional elections, as fallout from this disastrous campaign, which could result in big gains for the Democrats in the Senate and House. If it occurs that might give Clinton a window of support to push through her agenda. Pattern Ghost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Oh, absolutely. But she'll at least try. And compared to what the GOP has in store? These guys are talking about disbanding the IRS and they're deadly serious. Their objective is nothing short of crippling the federal government. That is not an exaggeration. I wonder if we'll have a GOP by next election. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of imploding right now. Edit: Heh. I should read the whole thread before responding, LL beat me to it in the post right above this one. GMTA. Or MMSTLGMOA* in this case. * Mediocre Minds Sometimes Think Like Great Minds on Accident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I think the GOP has been on a self destructive path for a while now. Trump is symptomatic, not causal. Lord Liaden, Shadow Hawk and Enforcer84 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 No doubt. I think the actual implosion is just getting closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I think the GOP has been on a self destructive path for a while now. Trump is symptomatic, not causal. Absolutely concur. Trying to ingest the Tea Party turned into massive indigestion for them, exacerbating their existing issues. Mind you, it's not an exclusive degradation -- the Dems have been shooting their own feet for some time as well -- but clearly more dramatic on the Republican side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Neither party is what they were 30 years ago. Each side has pushed so far into their respective corners that ideology trumps (pardon the pun) issues. The Republican Party is imploding because they sacrificed unity in the interest of some quick and easy votes when the Tea Party became a news item. Like most political decisions of late, the long-term consequences were never considered. Now we are paying for it. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Minor correction: These are the things she says she's going to do. She's going to meet as much resistance as, if not more, Obama in getting anything done. There's also the dubious value of campaign promises. Interestingly enough, one of the fact checking sites I scanned after the last election said that Obamacare already has all of the provisions she was talking about as fixes during the second poo-flinging contest debate. I didn't fact check the fact checkers, though. Anyone have any insight on that? I'm curious, but frankly too tired from running around getting ready for bad weather. Hillary was listing the various good things about the Affordable Care Act as a way of showing what would be lost by Trump's "repeal and replace". Things like no pre-existing conditions, no higher premiums for women, the ability to put children up to age 26 on their parent's plan, and so on would be wiped out with a total repeal. The major talking points about ACA needing fixing are that premiums have gone up, benefits have gone down, and co-pays have gone up. That's an unfortunate consequence of trying to push healthcare reform using for-profit insurance companies. Perhaps, the "fix" should be either to model the Swiss system (not for profit insurance companies compete for customers with added wellness benefits), or just bite the bullet and go single payer. Shadow Hawk and gewing 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 The times today did an article on Judicial Watch. This organization was set up to hound the Clintons. And it has been doing so for forty years. The original bank roller is dead. The original director was ousted via law suit. They keep digging. In forty years and numerous lawsuits and FOIA servings, all they have found is the private email server. Hillary is supposed to answer twenty five questions in writing thanks to them appealing to a judge for this. 40 years and all you got is a private email server. Maybe they should try others who might be easier targets CES Shadow Hawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Hillary was listing the various good things about the Affordable Care Act as a way of showing what would be lost by Trump's "repeal and replace". Things like no pre-existing conditions, no higher premiums for women, the ability to put children up to age 26 on their parent's plan, and so on would be wiped out with a total repeal. The major talking points about ACA needing fixing are that premiums have gone up, benefits have gone down, and co-pays have gone up. That's an unfortunate consequence of trying to push healthcare reform using for-profit insurance companies. Perhaps, the "fix" should be either to model the Swiss system (not for profit insurance companies compete for customers with added wellness benefits), or just bite the bullet and go single payer. I heard that Rubio inserted a rider to help cripple the insurance company subsidy to help cause the ACA to fail CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Depends on what you mean. There has been some alteration by Wikileaks (or other parties involved during/after the hacking of the accounts) in order to make them look worse than they are. One of them was attributed to Bloomenthal in the leaked email but was actually written by a Newsweek author (IIRC) -- so they know that tampering has been going on at that level. One of the earlier outcries on the email scandal referred to Clinton instructing State Dept. staffers to "remove the paper" or some such from classified documents so that they could be sent externally (as they were required in short time frame). Early outcries stated that this was an example of her instructing someone to remove the classified headers and send classified information out...but that's not what it means -- the parlance used meant to remove the classified information so that the document could be sent...which is proper procedure. I was thinking what was the thinking of releasing this stuff when one look will show that it's faked. Wouldn't Assange see that on his end? It basically ties him to the Russians as an agent provocateur when if he had kept the mail, he could still play himself as someone who wants transparency in government. Doesn't it hurt wikileaks on some level by showing its information is rigged. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 The non profit companies whose business model was Medicaid are absolutely killing it in the ACA exchanges. For profit companies are taking a pounding. We could discuss the casual reasons for that, if we really needed to, but it's evident that providing coverage without a profit motive is maybe a slightly different model given these national trends. Essentially outcomes push toward single payer managed by these types of entity. Be interesting to see if data matters in the discussions about this subject. Hasn't so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 To Nobody's Surprise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 As with Bill Cosby, once the first crack appears the dam starts to crumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I heard they were up to nine women, plus the Miss Teen USA dressing room thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Let's place bets: a) This does nothing to his chances. He's successfully created a vaccine for moral outrage. b ) Trumps official response will make the ending of "Scarface" look like the ending of Forrest Gump. c) This finally puts an end to his run and he returns to his tower - secure in the knowledge that he was cheated of his victory and that he has done nothing wrong. He spends the rest of his life proving it. d) Trump has leaked all this himself - terrified to continue and too proud to step aside. B is a given, so pair it up with another option.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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