Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Bazza]

[Burrito Boy]

Batman vs. Spiderman? This is going to be awesome!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm not jazzed about the Defenders lineup.  Neckbeard plus hipster douche plus Shaft and some chick nobody knows with the same powers as Shaft?

[Pattern Ghost]

Is it that the Defenders lineup is composed of the Heroes for Hire lineup, or that you don't like the Netflix versions of the characters, or that you don't like the characters' original versions, or some combination?

[zslane]

I just wish the Iron Fist show hadn't been such a disappointment (to me). It did not give me the Iron Fist character I wanted, nor the one I would have been excited to see join up with the others. Hell, I'd rather see Punisher on that team rather than the Danny Rand that we got. I'd even give up Colleen Wing for that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well imagine you're the GM and you have a street-level campaign to run.  Your players come to you and give you two martial artists and two bricks.  The two sets are virtually identical in abilities, with very minor differences.  Really?  That's as creative as you get?

 

I don't really care for the Jones character either, they could have easily gone with someone else in the Marvel Knights universe who was a lot more interesting rather than a recent creation favored by the present Marvel editors.

 

I like how Power Man was presented (although totally abandoning everything that made him a superhero instead of just some dude with powers irks me), but Daredevil, while he looks good in the costume, does not make me think of Matt Murdock.  And Iron Fist looks and seems NOTHING like my impression of him in the comics.

[zslane]

It is typical of superhero teams that they overlap in power sets. Not much need for Thor when you have Hulk. Not much need for Black Widow when you have Captain America. Etc. I think there are much more significant genre tropes to object to instead (like how every show absolutely must start our heroes at the very earliest stages of their heroing careers...Jessica's barely-acknowledged past notwithstanding).

 

Besides, the Defenders isn't really the point of all the Netflix shows, though I know the company line has been "it's all going to culminate in the Defenders". The real emphasis (in terms of the bigger picture for Marvel Entertainment and Disney) is, and always will be, on the on-going solo series where such overlap isn't an issue. The Defenders is just a fun team-up series that will, in all likelihood, not see a second "season". That's just my prediction, but I think once that is out of everyone's system, it'll be back to the next seasons of each of the individual shows and they probably won't even bother with another Defenders season. Why would they when it's just easier (and cheaper) to have cameos and 2-3 episode crossovers from time to time with the other characters instead?

[Tjack]

Over in the Fantasy Hero thread a GM was concerned that all his players wanted to be Swordsmen, and I replied something to the effect that if you have a group consisting of Conan, the Grey Mouser, Gomez Addams, D'artaignian and Luke Skywalker that you'ld have a hell of a game.

It's about the characters not the write-ups. Same thing for the Defenders show, as long as the writers create interesting scripts and the actors make their roles come alive the show will be great. If not than the most different power sets in the world won't save it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah but Hulk and Thor have significant differences.  Power Man and Jessica Jones, pretty much the same character sheet other than a few complications.  Its a bit more than some crossover, they're nearly identical.  And the setting is so similar for each and enemies, they're kind of redundant.

[zslane]

Over in the Fantasy Hero thread a GM was concerned that all his players wanted to be Swordsmen, and I replied something to the effect that if you have a group consisting of Conan, the Grey Mouser, Gomez Addams, D'artaignian and Luke Skywalker that you'ld have a hell of a game.

It's about the characters not the write-ups. Same thing for the Defenders show, as long as the writers create interesting scripts and the actors make their roles come alive the show will be great. If not than the most different power sets in the world won't save it.

 

I completely agree.

 

Though I would replace Gomez Addams with Inigo Montoya in that list of yours...

[zslane]

Yeah but Hulk and Thor have significant differences.  Power Man and Jessica Jones, pretty much the same character sheet other than a few complications.  Its a bit more than some crossover, they're nearly identical.  And the setting is so similar for each and enemies, they're kind of redundant.

 

I don't really see any similarities between Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, aside from super strength. Each of their shows were completely different from each other. Kilgrave was nothing like Cottonmouth or Diamondback. The noir detective genre is nothing like the Harlem Renaissance blacksploitation genre. Jessica is a hard-drinking hot mess who cares for only two people in the world. Luke Cage is a man of honor and hero to his community. They couldn't be more different.

[Tjack]

I completely agree.

 

Though I would replace Gomez Addams with Inigo Montoya in that list of yours...

I had him in the original post.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't really see any similarities between Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, aside from super strength.

 

 

I'm talking about their character sheets, not their story.  Like I said, their complications are different, but their powers are pretty well identical.  Strong, hard to hurt.  Basically identical.  See up above when I described the characters in terms of being a GM?

[Lord Liaden]

I completely agree.

 

Though I would replace Gomez Addams with Inigo Montoya in that list of yours...

 

Inigo and d'Artagnan are pretty close in style. Gomez is unique.

[Old Man]

Personally I think it's less of an issue for a TV show than for an RPG session.  All the characters in The Wire or Cheers had about the same powerset.  Personalities and complications are what drive the story. 

 

If you really need to define the characters in the action sequences, you could have Luke be more of a brawler while Jessica shows more real-world technique like muay thai and krav maga.  Danny would use more cinematic kung fu moves, setting up opponents for finishing with the Fist, and Matt would use truly ridiculous acrobatics.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm talking about their character sheets, not their story.  Like I said, their complications are different, but their powers are pretty well identical.  Strong, hard to hurt.  Basically identical.  See up above when I described the characters in terms of being a GM?

 

Well, Jessica Jones isn't bullet-proof. Luke Cage is pretty much a tank who wades through whatever's thrown at him. Jones has to use speed and smarts to avoid penetrating attacks. She also has limited flight, unlike Cage.

[bigdamnhero]

She also has limited flight, unlike Cage.

In Jessica's own words: "It's more like jumping... and then falling." And I agree her and Cage are completely different in execution.

 

Similarly, Iron Fist & Daredevil have little in common besides "hitting people." Daredevil's a brawler, not really a martial artist; he throws a mean punch, but his main powers are 1) being hard to hit, 2) being able to take a punch, and 3) refusing to quit.

 

And as disappointed as I was in Iron Fist's show, I think as part of a team he'll be okay and make a decent foil for the others. As long as they get him some decent martial arts training...

[bigdamnhero]

Speaking of Iron Fist, from an actual conversation around the gaming table tonight:

 

"The only interesting characters in Iron Fist were the Meachums."

"...You are literally the only person to think that. Including the actors who played the Meachums."

[Joe Walsh]

In Jessica's own words: "It's more like jumping... and then falling." And I agree her and Cage are completely different in execution.

 

Similarly, Iron Fist & Daredevil have little in common besides "hitting people." Daredevil's a brawler, not really a martial artist; he throws a mean punch, but his main powers are 1) being hard to hit, 2) being able to take a punch, and 3) refusing to quit.

 

And as disappointed as I was in Iron Fist's show, I think as part of a team he'll be okay and make a decent foil for the others. As long as they get him some decent martial arts training...

 

I started sketching Luke and Jessica out as HERO characters, and yeah, other than probably having the same STR, they're pretty different characters. Different skills, different powers, different defenses...

 

He has high, resistant defenses. She heals rapidly. He has a motorcycle. She has superleap (presumably with a DEX throw required in order to avoid a knockback-like effect on landing when jumping horizontally). And so on.

 

(I've never really understood the "one from each category" method of party building in RPGs anyway, nor the obsession with niche protection. But that's another story...)

[Bazza]

Well...soldiers in an army are all pretty much alike... Same skill set, same costume... Imagine if the army unit could only have one soldier per type...

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Writing a war story is a bit different than writing a comic, though.  Even in war comics they had really clearly distinguishable character types.  I'm not saying it can't work, its just a strange choice of kind of bland builds and similar characters to deliberately build your brand around.  Ghost Rider?  Yeah.  Cloak and Dagger, heck yeah.  Then you have some interesting variety and mixes of characters.  Even Moon Knight would be an interesting addition, a different sort than "hit them with my fists" guy number 2, 3, and 4. 

 

 We'll see.

[slikmar]

Hmmm, pulling the AOS Ghost Rider into the Defenders would have been interesting. And his background/power level seems to fit.

[bigdamnhero]

(I've never really understood the "one from each category" method of party building in RPGs anyway, nor the obsession with niche protection. But that's another story...)

Preach it! My least favorite RPG trope ever is the notion that every party must be "properly balanced" with a brick, a rogue, a spell-caster, a healer... It's yet another reason why I quit playing D&D/Pathfinder/etc, because so many adventures are written with that assumption that it becomes almost impossible to win if you don' have the "correct" party composition. Thus contributing to "Haven't We Played This Exact Game Before?" syndrome which (to me) plagues so much fantasy.

 

Edit: especially since the party that gave us the whole concept of adventuring parties - the Fellowship of the Ring - was the most unbalanced group ever. And yet no one ever complains that Boromir, Aragorn & Gimli are redundant because they're all fighters, let alone 4 Hobbits.

[DasBroot]

Punching heroes are cheaper on the SFX budget than blasting heroes? 

[zslane]

I'm talking about their character sheets, not their story.  Like I said, their complications are different, but their powers are pretty well identical.  Strong, hard to hurt.  Basically identical.  See up above when I described the characters in terms of being a GM?

 

I still think the only thing they really have in common on their "character sheets" is a similar level of STR. Jessica isn't a full-fledged brick the way Luke is. She's the team's "small forward" to Luke's "power forward", to use a basketball analogy, and both have a vital role to play in the game despite their superficial similarities.

 

Nevertheless, these shows are action dramas, with an emphasis on drama over action (at least in terms of screen time). There is a lot more dialog and character interaction than fighting in these shows. If you were GMing an Action Drama Hero campaign where the larger portion of game time was going to be spent on character interplay and "pure roleplaying," rather than combat, then I think it would be all those other qualities on their sheets that would meaningfully differentiate them, and ultimately be the more important to the campaign as a whole.