Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Joe Walsh]

Sure, that's the defense they all retreat to...because it's true. It's what Alex Jones says when he's hauled into court, it's what Limbaugh said on the record publicly and repeatedly as far back as the 90s. These political commentators are all entertainers, and as such are only as beholden to the truth as any random wanna-be comedian on an open mike stage.

 

Which raises the question -- is it a net good for society to allow such people prominence in our political discourse? My parents are completely hoodwinked by Maddow. My brother-in-law was for years a "ditto head" and now is an Alex Jones acolyte. Plenty of folks see frozen dinner scion Tucker Carlson as some sort of regular guy hero, telling the truth to the masses. But he's just an entertainer (tho it does raise questions as to his purpose to Fox, given the tiny number of advertisers remaining on his show).

 

Is this a beneficial political environment we've allowed to grow? Is the effect that people are entertained, or that they become herded into camps that are beneficial to the wealthy and powerful?

 

The answer seems clear to me. But as to what to do about it now, given the internet, I have no idea. Sure, we could restore the Fairness Doctrine to broadcast and maybe cable/satellite (any such moves would of course be bitterly fought in court by the media oligopoly, and our current supreme court seems unlikely to uphold much restriction on major corporations). But on the internet? The only way I can see to do that would be by further encouraging consolidation of services to a manageable number of megacorps and outlawing any 'pirate internet' sites. That's already where we're heading, but I don't think hastening its arrival will help. The corps who own those consolidated services will just go to court and politicians and get what they want, like all megacorps do in our incredibly corrupt system.

[Pariah]

As far as what we do about it, I can see only one solution: caveat emptor. We need to be responsible consumers of information. We need to have (or to obtain) the ability to look at an argument and evaluate it based on its own merits, not simply on who said it. We need to teach our children and others around us how to do the same.

 

Of course, this requires a level of personal responsibility that is not common in the American psyche right now. 

[Sociotard]

I'm not sure how to feel about Ukrainian civilians violating assorted rules of war.

 

Russian Troops Killed, Sickened By Poisoned Food From Ukraine Residents, Say Officials (msn.com)

 

That one breaks rules going back to the Lieber code in the US Civil War. The Geneva Convention only covers poison gasses and bacteriological weapons, but rules about poisoning food are well established in customary international law.

 

I've seen a few other videos of captured soldiers being humiliated when captured by civilians. I'm not sure how to feel about it. Civilians have no training about what the rules are, but they have been encouraged by their government to resist. Maybe it should be the Ukrainian government doing more to tell them what they are allowed to do.

[Lord Liaden]

One American commentator I follow recently made this point: if America was invaded, and the invader was killing your friends and family, leveling your homes and hospitals, what weapon would you consider not appropriate to use to fight back?

 

The recent revelation of mass executions of civilians in Bucha demonstrates that the rules of "civilized" warfare aren't being adhered to by Russian forces. Their trend has been to attacks of terror, designed to demoralize Ukrainian resistance. Targets without conventional weapons will improvise whatever they can. At least that poisoned food only went to combatants.

[archer]

25 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

One American commentator I follow recently made this point: if America was invaded, and the invader was killing your friends and family, leveling your homes and hospitals, what weapon would you consider not appropriate to use to fight back?

 

The recent revelation of mass executions of civilians in Bucha demonstrates that the rules of "civilized" warfare aren't being adhered to by Russian forces. Their trend has been to attacks of terror, designed to demoralize Ukrainian resistance. Targets without conventional weapons will improvise whatever they can. At least that poisoned food only went to combatants.

 

We're seeing from Russian troops the exact same thing that we've seen from untrained conscripts in wars throughout the ages: looting, rape, and taking it very personally when they're shot at then retaliating upon everyone in sight.

 

For two-thirds of each Russian battle group, their training consisted of "Put on this uniform. Someone will tell you what to do, then do it."

 

Those troops are put onto the battlefield but Russian military doctrine is that those troops won't actually see battle. But that's not what's happening in real life in Ukraine.

 

Troops behave in a civilized manner toward civilians when

 

a) They're in their own country defending their own country or

b) When troops are trained to act like disciplined soldiers even when no one is looking.

 

Option "b" isn't an iron-clan guarantee but it's the best any country has come up with so far.

 

And it's been to Russia's advantage so far that their soldiers have been undisciplined brutes because that's played into their tactic to break the Ukrainian's will to fight.

 

And it'll come back to bite them in the butt unless they go on to conquer the world.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I agree with all you say, archer; but it's more than that. The Russians are engaging in deliberate mass bombing and shelling of cities, reducing them to rubble. Homes, schools, hospitals, all indiscriminately destroyed. Civilians were rounded up and executed en masse. Soldiers who refuse to follow those orders are shot. This isn't just the dogs of war being let slip to ravage at will. These are deliberate orders, and as you say, Russian military are top-down, so these orders must be coming from the top.

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, archer said:

And it's been to Russia's advantage so far that their soldiers have been undisciplined brutes

 

With a large number of scared kids thrown into the mix.

 

Untrained rabble is to nobody's advantage, IMO.

 

As for the poisoning . . . I don't like it, mainly because it's a tactic that can have unintended consequences if it gets into the hands of other than your intended target. But if you bully a much weaker opponent, you should expect them to fight dirty. The bigger problem is that if you don't succeed in cowing your opponent, you could unintentionally unleash a monster. I hope the Ukrainians aren't pushed past that tipping point into things like public executions, torture, etc., as it would scar them as a people.

[Ragitsu]

I just heard a politician that was once considered progressive say "woke" in regards to sexual orientation. When you find out a public servant genuinely uses the language of internet right-wingers...yikes.

[wcw43921]

"Woke" isn't right wing

[Ragitsu]

It is, when they use the word.

[Old Man]

It does seem to have evolved into a pejorative used by the right wing.

[Ragitsu]

The politician in question serves Hawaii.

[Old Man]

If you're talking about Tulsi, she's currently unemployed and I'm not sure she even lives here anymore.  I'm not sure she was ever really considered progressive, but she certainly isn't now.

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

If you're talking about Tulsi, she's currently unemployed and I'm not sure she even lives here anymore.  I'm not sure she was ever really considered progressive, but she certainly isn't now.

 

Good. If you couldn't tell, I never kept up to date with her movements/aspirations; all I remember is that she was once considered hot s*** on the progressive ticket by certain left (left-leaning?) folks. Obviously, the lady was skilled at deceiving enough people.

[unclevlad]

Regrettably, it comes as no real surprise that Oklahoma is about to basically ban ALL abortions.  From a breaking story in NYT:

 

Quote

The measure, Senate Bill 612, would make performing an abortion “except to save the life of a pregnant woman in a medical emergency” a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

 

It passed the Senate 70-14.  The governor's Republican and is completely pro-life, so there's no chance he won't sign it....and heck, even if he was foolish enough not to, an override, given that overwhelming majority, is a given.

[Ragitsu]

The correct (precise) term is "Anti-Choice". That aside, it is heartwarming to know that someone in office is looking out for rapist interests .

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Good. If you couldn't tell, I never kept up to date with her movements/aspirations; all I remember is that she was once considered hot s*** on the progressive ticket by certain left (left-leaning?) folks. Obviously, the lady was skilled at deceiving enough people.

 

Certainly deceived me, to my everlasting shame.  Still, her heel turn was amazingly abrupt and extreme.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Regrettably, it comes as no real surprise that Oklahoma is about to basically ban ALL abortions.  From a breaking story in NYT:

 

 

It passed the Senate 70-14.  The governor's Republican and is completely pro-life, so there's no chance he won't sign it....and heck, even if he was foolish enough not to, an override, given that overwhelming majority, is a given.

 

We all knew this issue was heading back to the SCOTUS sooner or later. All things considered, it's no surprise that it will be sooner.

[archer]

Rep. Ami Bera, D-Calif. bitten by FOX operative on Monday evening.

 

https://apnews.com/article/ami-bera-f0519de7337cc7ab37f1e11d858d1a58

[megaplayboy]

Welp, we had a good run as a species, I guess.  Bring on the meteor.  💥

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

Welp, we had a good run as a species, I guess.  Bring on the meteor.  💥

 

As things are trending now, No Meteor Required.

[Lord Liaden]

Google "Srebrenica massacre." 1995. We aren't trending there, we never left.

 

But I believe the majority of humanity are still revolted by such events, so I haven't given up on us as a species. Our lows have been matched by our highs.

[megaplayboy]

11 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Google "Srebrenica massacre." 1995. We aren't trending there, we never left.

 

But I believe the majority of humanity are still revolted by such events, so I haven't given up on us as a species. Our lows have been matched by our highs.

My concern is that the scope and scale of atrocity ongoing in Ukraine has few equivalents in the post-WW2 era--except Rwanda, the Congo, Sudan, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.  That these atrocities are being committed by a permanent member of the Security Council points to an urgent need to either reform the UN or scrap it and start over.  

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I haven't seen much on Florida's anti gay bill. As written, it's pretty ludicrous as not discussing orientation and gender would include hetero versions as well. Of course, that makes it even more obvious what the intention of this bill is.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

My concern is that the scope and scale of atrocity ongoing in Ukraine has few equivalents in the post-WW2 era--except Rwanda, the Congo, Sudan, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.  That these atrocities are being committed by a permanent member of the Security Council points to an urgent need to either reform the UN or scrap it and start over.  

 

Agreed. What's really led to the galvanization of the international community over this atrocity versus those others -- and I'm rather despondent over having to say it this way -- is that Ukraine is in Europe, and full of white Christians.

 

4 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I haven't seen much on Florida's anti gay bill. As written, it's pretty ludicrous as not discussing orientation and gender would include hetero versions as well. Of course, that makes it even more obvious what the intention of this bill is.

 

Many critics of the bill point out that it includes no minimum age for marriage. So rejoice, old men of Florida, looks like child brides may be back on the menu.