Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Old Man]

The one thing to remember is that popular support for the war is not nearly as widespread as polls might indicate. Very few Russians answer surveys at all, and the ones that do know what the ‘correct’ answers are. 

[Pariah]

10 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

That it's the opposite of teaching a child to think. Thinking is evaluating, asking questions to clarify. Thinking is being receptive to new ideas and viewpoints, comparing them to what you'd already heard and coming to a conclusion. Fascists never want people to learn to think, because then they'll realize that what they've been told is lies and fantasy.

 

As a science teacher in one of the Reddest states, I can state from my own experience that this is true. Our Legislature gives lip service to the importance of education ... as a means of training workers to be competitive in a high-tech global economy. But in terms of kids actually learning science, never mind philosophy, the arts, etc., not really so much. Our Legislature also looks for literally anything they can throw education money at other than public schools — charter schools, vouchers, online high school, you name it.

 

I'm occasionally asked by students, "Why do I have to take science classes when I'm going to be a lawyer/entrepreneur/engineer(no, I'm not kidding about that)/whatever?" I always want to say, "Because if you don't have a solid education in science, you might grow up believing that vaccines cause autism, or that the Earth's climate isn't changing, or that an ex-reality show host knows more about how to contain a global pandemic than doctors do." I have to bite my tongue, because I know I'll get nasty e-mails if I say it.

[unclevlad]

Not actually quite what Voltaire said, but now the better-known version.  

 

‘Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities’

Arguably an essential component of the first part, is the suppression of critical thinking...so that the minions swallow the indoctrinators' messages and lack the ability to challenge ANY of it.  

 

It's also hard to challenge when even legit science is confusing...before we even get to the obfuscation efforts.  Sometimes the data is just vague...global warming.  Sometimes the advice is tricky/nuanced, like mask mandates.  Quite often, the advice runs against self-interest to a degree, or is inconvenient/expensive.  

[death tribble]

Florida lawmakers strip Disney of special tax status

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61179262

[unclevlad]

22 minutes ago, death tribble said:

Florida lawmakers strip Disney of special tax status

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61179262

 

The Republican politicians have no fear of electoral reprisal.  ESPECIALLY in Florida, where the electoral map is being structured to make the state government assuredly Republican.  One would hope their district map will be overturned by the courts, but this can't be considered a given now.

[Joe Walsh]

Just now, unclevlad said:

 

The Republican politicians have no fear of electoral reprisal.  ESPECIALLY in Florida, where the electoral map is being structured to make the state government assuredly Republican.  One would hope their district map will be overturned by the courts, but this can't be considered a given now.

 

That, and the counties where property taxes will massively increase as a result of this are both majority Dem, so from the legislature's perspective no loss if those residents get pissed off (including the R's living there of course).

 

From DeSantis' perspective, this is all just paving his way to the White House, so it sort of doesn't matter what happens to Florida, as long as it makes him look good in the eyes of R megadonors and the true believers.

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, GM Joe said:

From DeSantis' perspective, this is all just paving his way to the White House, so it sort of doesn't matter what happens to Florida, as long as it makes him look good in the eyes of R megadonors and the true believers.

 

Although, one has to wonder what would happen if Disney decided to throw Scrooge McDuck-level amounts of money at his opponent based on this.  

[unclevlad]

8 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Although, one has to wonder what would happen if Disney decided to throw Scrooge McDuck-level amounts of money at his opponent based on this.  

 

So what if they did?  The Republicans control the state houses...and they're aiming for a total stranglehold.  A Democratic governor won't be able to change much.  Same with Texas;  even if a Democratic governor gets elected, they won't be able to overturn, say, the abortion bill...unless the courts do so first.  

[Tom]

44 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Although, one has to wonder what would happen if Disney decided to throw Scrooge McDuck-level amounts of money at his opponent based on this.  

 

A bigger nightmare (for Republicans) would be if Disney were to throw Scrooge McDuck levels of money at a massive PR campaign to convince Floridians just how badly they were going to be hurt by DeSantis and Republicans ruffling the feathers of the golden goose...

[Lectryk]

3 hours ago, GM Joe said:

 

That, and the counties where property taxes will massively increase as a result of this are both majority Dem, so from the legislature's perspective no loss if those residents get pissed off (including the R's living there of course).

 

 

[Sociotard]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-biggest-chemical-plant-26767453

 

Russia's biggest chemical plant burns down in a mysterious fire. The same day another mysterious fire burned down a weapons R&D facility in Tver. The Black Sea is just rough all over, ain't it Vlady.

 

And, just to wipe the smirk off my face, here is an insightful rebuke from Stephen Fry. If the West wanted to help Ukraine, and not just draw out the war and funnel money to Raytheon, it should just start gas rationing. Remember the pandemic, and the price of a barrel of oil went negative for a bit? Do that to Putin. We're funding him new tanks faster than we're sending Ukraine javelins.

 

 

 

[Ternaugh]

4 hours ago, GM Joe said:

 

That, and the counties where property taxes will massively increase as a result of this are both majority Dem, so from the legislature's perspective no loss if those residents get pissed off (including the R's living there of course).

 

From DeSantis' perspective, this is all just paving his way to the White House, so it sort of doesn't matter what happens to Florida, as long as it makes him look good in the eyes of R megadonors and the true believers.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/21/us/reedy-creek-walt-disney-florida/index.html

 

Quote

The dissolution of the special district would mean that Orange and Osceola counties take on the assets and liabilities of Reedy Creek. That could lead to higher taxes for those residents to pay off Reedy Creek’s debts and take over the care of roads, policing, fire protection, waste management and more.

State Sen. Gary Farmer, a Democrat, was one of a number of Democratic lawmakers who criticized the bill for what he called “shoot first, ask questions later.”

“The debt service alone for Reedy Creek is over a billion dollars,” Farmer said Wednesday. “This bill makes no provision as to how that debt service is going to be assumed. Local government entities must pick up assets and liabilities of any special district that is dissolved.”

 

[unclevlad]

Well, I don't think anyone's accused DeSantis of thinking things through.

 

I just had a thought.  I wonder if this would constitute an improper form of eminent domain.   From the story:

 

Quote

What that means for Disney and for Florida taxpayers is not entirely clear. Republican sponsors were unable to give detailed answers to questions about financial and legal implications of the legislation during floor discussions Thursday. They suggested that the legislature could work through logistics of the dissolution over the next year.

 

The dissolution of the special district would mean that Orange and Osceola counties take on the assets and liabilities of Reedy Creek. That could lead to higher taxes for those residents to pay off Reedy Creek’s debts and take over the care of roads, policing, fire protection, waste management and more.

 

This feels like eminent domain without compensation, and that is, I'm pretty sure, quite illegal.  Besides:  the entire Florida 2022 budget totals a touch over $100B.  What's the total value of 

 

Quote

Today, the Reedy Creek special district encompasses about 25,000 acres in Orange and Osceola counties, including four theme parks, two water parks, one sports complex, 175 lane miles of roadway, 67 miles of waterway, and the cities of Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista, its website says.

 

MULTIPLE billions.  The entire *state* probably couldn't pull this off...and 2 counties are gonna?

 

Last inanity.  We can draw a very recent comparison:  it's called Brexit.  How well did THOSE talks over the details and logistics go, hmmm????  

 

When DeSantis signs this, I expect a lawsuit to be filed by Disney within a week.  This looks to be an existential challenge to Disney.  They have to have a small army of their best lawyers building a case against this.

[assault]

On the plus side, giving a corporation government responsibilities/authorities was a bit Florida in the first place.

[Ternaugh]

23 minutes ago, assault said:

On the plus side, giving a corporation government responsibilities/authorities was a bit Florida in the first place.

 

The Florida Project, as it was originally known at Disney, was Walt's dream to develop the Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, or EPCOT. Plans included commerical, industrial, residential and recreational areas, all linked by various advanced transportation systems. The Reedy Creek Improvement District was expressly designed to facilitate the infrastructure for this community, and included rights for police, fire, sanitation, roads, people movers, monorails, and even a possible nuclear power plant.

 

The project was changed by the Walt Disney Company after Walt's death in 1966, with the community being replaced by the current mix of hotels, amusement parks, and shopping. The nearby community of Celebration, Florida was developed by the Walt Disney Company on a section of the Reedy Creek Improvement District in the mid-nineties, but it's nowhere near as grand as the original plans.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPCOT_(concept)#:~:text=The original concept of EPCOT,Disney%2C which opened in 1971.

[Lord Liaden]

11 hours ago, Sociotard said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-biggest-chemical-plant-26767453

 

Russia's biggest chemical plant burns down in a mysterious fire. The same day another mysterious fire burned down a weapons R&D facility in Tver. The Black Sea is just rough all over, ain't it Vlady.

 

And, just to wipe the smirk off my face, here is an insightful rebuke from Stephen Fry. If the West wanted to help Ukraine, and not just draw out the war and funnel money to Raytheon, it should just start gas rationing. Remember the pandemic, and the price of a barrel of oil went negative for a bit? Do that to Putin. We're funding him new tanks faster than we're sending Ukraine javelins.

 

 

 

 

A political commentator I follow pointed out that it's in the interests of the West, more specifically America and NATO, to keep the war in Ukraine dragging on, although not necessarily as intensely as it has been. If Ukraine keeps Russia's attention and resources focused on it, that takes Russia off the chessboard of the rest of the globe, and frees up the West to concentrate on dealing with China. In the meantime the military-industrial complex continues to profit.

 

As said commentator frequently says, national governments' foreign policy isn't about morality. It's about power.

[Lawnmower Boy]

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

The Republican politicians have no fear of electoral reprisal.  ESPECIALLY in Florida, where the electoral map is being structured to make the state government assuredly Republican.  One would hope their district map will be overturned by the courts, but this can't be considered a given now.

with all due respect to the world-historical genius of the GOP's electoral strategists, that's how you turn partisan polarisation into party collapse. William Jennings Bryant for President! (Because we can't nominate anyone else no matter how often he loses.)

[Pariah]

My question: How can these two states (Florida and Texas) with such large Latinx populations be so overwhelmingly Republican? What is the GOP saying to make these voters believer they're on their side?

 

[Old Man]

15 minutes ago, Pariah said:

My question: How can these two states (Florida and Texas) with such large Latinx populations be so overwhelmingly Republican? What is the GOP saying to make these voters believer they're on their side?

 

 

Latinx voters are socially conservative and can be convinced that illegal immigrants and Cuba are the cause of many of their problems.

[Hermit]

23 minutes ago, Pariah said:

My question: How can these two states (Florida and Texas) with such large Latinx populations be so overwhelmingly Republican? What is the GOP saying to make these voters believer they're on their side?

 

 

It's my understanding that the Latin American population is often more conservative than the Democrats would like. Texicans are not lock step in with newer arrivals, Cuban Americans  are not necessarily in sync with other Latin groups etc.  Strong religious  and 'family values' that the GOP can appeal to (However honest or dishonest they are in it) are a major factor as well.  

 

For one example, the term "Latinx" you used, with good intentions, appears to annoy the TICK out of some Latin Americans for various reasons.  So much so, some democrat politicians have been backing off it's use. In this case it's not so much 'Yay Republicans' as 'seriously? Who gave you the right to rebrand us?'  kind of mentality. The Democrats didn't invent the term As far as I know, but their use of it backfired according to some studies.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/many-latinos-say-latinx-offends-or-bothers-them-here-s-ncna1285916

 

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/388532/controversy-term-latinx-public-opinion-context.aspx

 

And, of course, you can thank state level of officials for making sure it's really hard for non pearly white folk to vote in many areas if they can get away with it.

[pinecone]

14 hours ago, assault said:

On the plus side, giving a corporation government responsibilities/authorities was a bit Florida in the first place.

Cough, cough, Railroad!, cough.....

57 minutes ago, Pariah said:

My question: How can these two states (Florida and Texas) with such large Latinx populations be so overwhelmingly Republican? What is the GOP saying to make these voters believer they're on their side?

 

People often fail to consider just how socially conservative persons of "Group X" are.

[Ragitsu]

Cubans (a majority of Hispanics in Florida) tend to lean conservative.

[Lord Liaden]

This is a perspective on the broader implications of the DeSantis/Disney conflict that never occurred to me before.

 

 

[Tom]

I would also argue that this could impact business/corporate donations to Republicans on a national basis. 
 

The Republicans have always been the pro-business party.  DeSantis just made absolutely clear that the Trump wing’s willingness to throw red meat to its base on culture war issues trumps any sort of relationship with corporate America. 
 

Ever hear the lobbyist definition of an “honest politician”?  One who stays bought…

 

Why give money to a party that is going to throw you under the bus so it can rile up its base over social issues?  Especially social issues that are going to wrong foot you with your customers if you keep your mouth shut and remember your place…

[Tom]