Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer]

[Iuz the Evil]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1597094/Russia-fighter-jet-putin-latest
 

Interesting in the category of “secondary gains for NATO that are significant”

[Cygnia]

World Central Kitchen Restaurant in Ukraine Hit by Russian Airstrike

[unclevlad]

What's next, refugee camps?  Doctors Without Borders aid stations?

[Lord Liaden]

Food and medicine and shelter give comfort to the enemy. Degrading them degrades your enemy's readiness for combat. That's the cold-blooded calculation that's governed the conduct of war throughout human history. We like to believe we've generally become more "civilized" about war, and maybe we have; but you don't have to scratch most people's veneer of civilization too deeply to reach the barbarian underneath.

 

Mind you, Russia's targeting of Ukrainian civilians is a deliberate terror tactic to try to break their spirit. Historically that most often just stiffens the enemy's resolve to fight. You have to reach Mongol levels of ruthlessness before you start to critically impair morale. (Come to think of it, that might be an interesting comparison to make to Russians, given what the Mongols did to them.)

[unclevlad]

42 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Food and medicine and shelter give comfort to the enemy. Degrading them degrades your enemy's readiness for combat. That's the cold-blooded calculation that's governed the conduct of war throughout human history. We like to believe we've generally become more "civilized" about war, and maybe we have; but you don't have to scratch most people's veneer of civilization too deeply to reach the barbarian underneath.

 

Mind you, Russia's targeting of Ukrainian civilians is a deliberate terror tactic to try to break their spirit. Historically that most often just stiffens the enemy's resolve to fight. You have to reach Mongol levels of ruthlessness before you start to critically impair morale. (Come to think of it, that might be an interesting comparison to make to Russians, given what the Mongols did to them.)

 

Doing so now, tho, accelerates calls for war crimes tribunals and punishments.  This is IMO a big factor in why discussions are beginning for *permanent* steps against Putin/Russia.  

[Lord Liaden]

This is a very thoughtful analysis of the current tactical situation in Eastern Ukraine, and a more balanced approach than the sound-bite format favored by American networks (11:31 total).

 

 

[unclevlad]

LOVE that hoodie he's wearing there.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Pretty certain it's his merch. You can find a link to his online store on that video page. (Nothing wrong with a little free enterprise in a good cause.)

[Pariah]

They won't say which books were rejected, though, nor what content they found unacceptable.

 

Florida Rejects 54 Math Books for ‘Attempts to Indoctrinate Students'

 

"Math is about getting the right answer, and we want kids to learn to think so they can get the right answer, it's not about how you feel about the problem or to introduce some of these other things," DeSantis said.

[Lord Liaden]

Everything with Republicans today is always the "right" answer. That's the opposite of teaching kids to think.

[Matt the Bruins]

The books rejected were in the K-5 age bracket. In early childhood education, you use stories and activities (even better if they're hands-on with manipulatives) to teach Math, not page after page of problems.

 

Or reciting counting tables as a class to the schoolmarm.

[DShomshak]

18 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Mind you, Russia's targeting of Ukrainian civilians is a deliberate terror tactic to try to break their spirit. Historically that most often just stiffens the enemy's resolve to fight. You have to reach Mongol levels of ruthlessness before you start to critically impair morale. (Come to think of it, that might be an interesting comparison to make to Russians, given what the Mongols did to them.)

My Russian History professor said the Mongol conquest was the single most important event in shaping the Russian worldview, especially in foreign relations. As he put it, more or less: Deep in the Russian imagination, the Horde is always coming. The face and flag changes -- Teutonic Knights, Mongols, Germans (repeatedly), Napoleon's French; Americans (among others) in the Russian Civil War; now NATO (in Putin's telling); but it is always the Horde. The Horde has no mercy, so neither can you.

 

And the "Tatar Yoke" lasted more than 200 years! Those centuries of brutal absolutism shaped Russian ideas of what power looks like. See: Ivan the Terrible. Yes, Ivan the Terrible was a maniac prone to outbursts of homicidal rage, to the point of killing his own son, but he beat the Mongols and freed Russia. Which is why Western folk err in translating Ivan's epithet as "the Terrible." Russians mean "the Awesome." Of course he's frightening! That shows how great he is! Or Stalin: Yes, he killed millions of his subjects in his purges and forced collectivization, but he beat the Horde when it came in the guise of Nazis. So for many Ruddians, he's still a great leader.

 

So I do not expect Putin to scruple at, well, anything.

 

Dean Shomshak

[archer]

Broken the 800 "tanks destroyed" barrier.

 

Some estimates before the war were that Russia had as few as 2000 operational tanks (and thousands that might eventually be refurbished someday if they put enough money, effort, and imported resources into it).

 

 

[DShomshak]

Possibly of interest: Military historian and, I am told, conservative pundit (though I no longer know what "conservative" means, post-Trump) Max Boot wrote this op-ed for the Washington Post on the difference between Russian and Ukrainian military culture. Particularly of note, citation of an 1854 The Economist article on Russian failures in the Crimean War that well describe the Russian army today.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/04/12/ukraine-military-culture-advantage-over-russia/

 

Dean Shomshak

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Everything with Republicans today is always the "right" answer. That's the opposite of teaching kids to think.

 

Oh, they teach kids to think...precisely their desired mindset.

 

Which varies by factors like race and wealth.  And gender.

[Old Man]

Keep in mind that the pandemic (along with the usual low pay and lack of support) drove hordes of experienced teachers out of the profession over the last two years.  The right sees this as an opportunity to fill the void with right-thinking new teachers and curricula to support them.  This is what's driving the book bans, textbook rewrites, and CRT legislation, not to mention the death threats against school board members.  Public education institutions are weak, and they're pouncing.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Oh, they teach kids to think...precisely their desired mindset.

 

Which varies by factors like race and wealth.  And gender.

 

That isn't thinking, it's programming. The doctrinaire equivalent to making dogs salivate when you ring a bell.

[DShomshak]

Update: After I posted above re: Russia's history with the Mongols, I heard today's episode of "The Daily" radio show about Putin's recent speeches. And yep, Putin is playing the "Horde Card": Russia is surrounded by enemies fanatically determined to invade and annihilate it.

 

Plus a hint of Stalin, in warning of the need to find and neutralize internal traitors -- defined as anyone who is not fully in support of his government and the invasion "special military action" in Ukraine.

 

And the Russian people are falling into line. Majority public opinion has shifted from disbelief in the war to enthusiastic endorsement of invading Ukraine. There are already incidents of people being denounced to the police for expressing doubt about the official war narrative: They talked to a schoolteacher on Sakhalin Island who showed her students a You/tube video of children singing a song about peace in Russian and Ukrainian. Many of her 8th graders were outraged. The police soon arrested her; she was tried and convicted under a new law that punishes any speech deemed to disparage the military; and fined the equivalent of $400... more than a month's wages. She says she won't shut up, though.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/19/podcasts/the-daily/putin-russia-ukraine.html

 

Dean Shomshak

[Ternaugh]

29 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

That isn't thinking, it's programming. The doctrinaire equivalent to making dogs salivate when you ring a bell.

 

"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

That isn't thinking, it's programming. The doctrinaire equivalent to making dogs salivate when you ring a bell.

 

And your point is....?

[Lord Liaden]

That it's the opposite of teaching a child to think. Thinking is evaluating, asking questions to clarify. Thinking is being receptive to new ideas and viewpoints, comparing them to what you'd already heard and coming to a conclusion. Fascists never want people to learn to think, because then they'll realize that what they've been told is lies and fantasy.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Update: After I posted above re: Russia's history with the Mongols, I heard today's episode of "The Daily" radio show about Putin's recent speeches. And yep, Putin is playing the "Horde Card": Russia is surrounded by enemies fanatically determined to invade and annihilate it.

 

Plus a hint of Stalin, in warning of the need to find and neutralize internal traitors -- defined as anyone who is not fully in support of his government and the invasion "special military action" in Ukraine.

 

And the Russian people are falling into line. Majority public opinion has shifted from disbelief in the war to enthusiastic endorsement of invading Ukraine. There are already incidents of people being denounced to the police for expressing doubt about the official war narrative: They talked to a schoolteacher on Sakhalin Island who showed her students a You/tube video of children singing a song about peace in Russian and Ukrainian. Many of her 8th graders were outraged. The police soon arrested her; she was tried and convicted under a new law that punishes any speech deemed to disparage the military; and fined the equivalent of $400... more than a month's wages. She says she won't shut up, though.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/19/podcasts/the-daily/putin-russia-ukraine.html

 

Dean Shomshak

 

If that's the case, then the only way for this to end will be to crush Russia economically and militarily. To grind it so thoroughly into the ground that it's just incapable of making war any more. Which won't get rid of Putin -- I'm sure he'd rather stand atop a pile of rubble and corpses than give up his campaign, as long as he's on top.

 

And this will build massive resentment in Russia toward the West that a future dictator will channel to build a new Russian menace, just as Hitler did in Germany.

 

I'm depressed now, I'm going to bed.

[unclevlad]

8 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

If that's the case, then the only way for this to end will be to crush Russia economically and militarily. To grind it so thoroughly into the ground that it's just incapable of making war any more. Which won't get rid of Putin -- I'm sure he'd rather stand atop a pile of rubble and corpses than give up his campaign, as long as he's on top.

 

And this will build massive resentment in Russia toward the West that a future dictator will channel to build a new Russian menace, just as Hitler did in Germany.

 

I'm depressed now, I'm going to bed.

 

It will also make Russia USE its nukes.  What would they have to lose, if they're really pressed that severely?  As you say:  a pile of rubble and corpses.

 

We also know how this goes.  Think Saddam.  Bush thought the reaction would be "...and there was much rejoicing!!"  In fact?  The opposite.  And how in the heavens are you going to *occupy* Russia?  It's FREAKING HUGE!!  Heck, we couldn't manage Iraq very well;  the Soviet army had a BEAR of a time in Afghanistan.  In tactics, there's

 

--suppress.  Prevent the enemy's forces from being active.

--clear.  Remove enemy forces from the area.

--occupy.  Can only follow clear.  Put your troops into the area to maintain control.

 

Suppress is mostly what we did in Iraq.  Trash their tanks.  Trash their missile launchers.  Use missiles on their military targets.  

 

Clear is far harder, and requires many more troops, and more kinds of troops.  It can't be achieved with just air power and missiles;  it must have ground troops.

 

Occupy is obviously a NIGHTMARE.  Troops are exposed to small scale troop activities and partisan action by the locals...unless your actual Clear is scorched-earth level.  That's a level Putin isn't reaching...but is a lot closer than the West would ever countenance.  Occupy is *extremely* expensive in ALL ways.

[Lord Liaden]

Only available course now is what the West is doing, continue to degrade Russia. Deplete their military through supplying Ukraine, beggar their economy with sanctions. It will take years before even Putin can't ignore the writing on the wall, but Russia can't win in Ukraine under these conditions. In terms of Putin's overall objectives, they've already lost.