Wizards of the Coast Announces One D&D

[Ragitsu]

4 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

D&D is successful in spite of its mechanics, not because of them.  That's the power of branding and production values, and WotC is currently destroying the power of its brand.

 

Back during the 2e era, TSR was pumping out interesting setting supplements/box sets; these days, WOTC is hesitant to back anything beyond The Forgotten Realms and even then they primarily focus on The Sword Coast region.

[Cygnia]

Just had to sent an e-mail to Customer Support to delete my DND Beyond account.  We'll see how long THAT takes...

[Chris Goodwin]

What happens to executives who cost the company a ton of money, tank their stock price, and expose them to legal liability?  Asking for a friend.

[Cygnia]

3 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

What happens to executives who cost the company a ton of money, tank their stock price, and expose them to legal liability?  Asking for a friend.

Well, if Twitter is anything to go by right now...

[Scott Ruggels]

 Paizo just gave WoTC and Hasbro a pair of middle fingers, and may have built a foundation for them to surpass D&D
 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I heard a rumor that this OGL nonsense might somehow affect Cephus Engine-  essentially the guts of Classic Traveller.

 

Can any more knowledable about such things enlighten me as to just how?  Clearly there are no d20 elements in the Classic Traveller engine.

 

Is it the slight possibility that Miller might use a potential succes by Wizards to knock down folks publishing for the rules ser he created?

 

(Which, no lie, would seriously disappoint me: he seems like a pretty decent guy overall.)

 

I only ask because, since Traveller is my fismrat RPG love affair, is still a go-to game for me, and wobbles back and forth with Champions as my favorite RPG, and will always be my favorite engine for running westerns or anything "gritty" (I have said it before, and it will always be true:  you have to bend Champions until the metal breaks to get the lethality that comes standard with the majority of not-HERO games out there),  I had considered pickinf up a Cephus book or two, just to see what it is all about.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Mongoose released a system reference document for their Traveller 1e as open content under the OGL.  Cepheus took that, added bits from T20, d20 Modern, and d20 Future, as well as some of their own writing, to turn it into a full RPG.  So it would potentially be affected.

 

That's partly what makes this such a big mess.  They're not the only ones who have done things like that.

[Duke Bushido]

Ah.

 

I have ten times as many quesrions now.

 

Did Mongoose just copy Wizard's OGL and say "we have one, too, in reference to what we created,"  or were they somehow claiming that wizard's own DnD related OGL applied to modernized Classic Traveller?

[Chris Goodwin]

42 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Ah.

 

I have ten times as many quesrions now.

 

Did Mongoose just copy Wizard's OGL and say "we have one, too, in reference to what we created,"  or were they somehow claiming that wizard's own DnD related OGL applied to modernized Classic Traveller?

 

They included Wizards' OGL and released it under that.  Anyone can (or could, until tomorrow, when the OGL supposedly becomes "deauthorized"), release anything they wanted to by including the text of the OGL and following its rules.  Respecting Product Identity, noting what is Open Content, and so on.  

 

[Duke Bushido]

Well, I thank you again, but at this point, I am goinf to need a lawyer to explain to me how that entitles wizards to ownership of Traveller or Cephus.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

19 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Well, I thank you again, but at this point, I am goinf to need a lawyer to explain to me how that entitles wizards to ownership of Traveller or Cephus.

 

 

 

It doesn't, but as people have taken great pains to point out, the new OGL (now called OGL 2.0) isn't finished yet.  And no one trusts Wizards further than we can throw them.  They could certainly put a clause into 2.0 that says, anything you've ever published belongs to us now.  

 

Also, signing onto OGL 2.0 means you're giving up the right to publish anything under OGL 1.0a.  So if Mongoose wanted to publish anything for the next version of D&D under OGL 2.0, they're no longer allowed to publish anything that's under 1.0a.  Which means, any OGL content from their web site, or any Traveller 1e material that's still under OGL 1.0, or any other.  "No longer authorized," and the text of the OGL is copyright to Wizards of the Coast. In order to distribute any Open Content, you have to include the text of OGL 1.0a, and if Wizards tells you that you can't distribute that any longer, you're SOL.  

 

I'm sure that what Wizards thought they were doing was telling people that anything they wanted to use to play D&D with using D&D Beyond (the virtual tabletop software they're trying to lock everyone into) would have to be submitted in a certain format, and would then belong to Wizards of the Coast.  They seem to have botched that pretty badly though.  

 

Copyright law doesn't protect game rules, procedures for play, or a large number of other things that appear in a roleplaying game manual, but as WotC and now Hasbro were the 800 pound gorilla in the space, no one wanted to risk being sued for making products that were compatible with their stuff.  The OGL gave people peace of mind that they wouldn't be.  People built businesses and made livelihoods based on that, and with one announcement Wizards pulled that peace of mind out from under them.  That peace of mind is what built the 5e ecosystem, and inarguably made D&D 5e the biggest RPG of its time.  

 

(Apparently the reason GDW went under was not because they were being sued by anyone, but the possibility that they could be, and what they'd have to do to comply with discovery in the event the might be, was what did it.)  

[Opal]

The OGL has been around since, IIRC, 1999. 

 

D&D was a fad in the 80s, 5e D&D exploded because the 80s (finally) came back.  

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

14 hours ago, Opal said:

I still drop by D&D spaces, and a very common topic of discussion/hand-wringing is how to "fix" published adventures, customize them to the "OP level" of your party, etc.  You can find major re-writes by fans and influencers on line.

 

Difference is Hero has (is) tools that let you do that.

 

I guess this is relevant to the discussion due to D&D's persistent market dominance, and it's tempting to think there was something other than name recognition and timing to explain it.

 

They are more than adequate explanations, imho.

Yes but you meed to know how to yes the tools. I’ m not bashing Hero but everytime some one points out the flaws of (especially) D&D and say Hero is better never really look at the issue and see if Hero really is easier or does Hero just have the issue but from another angle or a different set? Like Ild man upthread was saying how much easier is it to build a character you want than searching multi classes and feats. Probably depending on what you want. If Hero is so easy why are there so many How do I? Question are on this site? 

[Scott Ruggels]

If this really was the time for hero games to step up, then it would need a free, web based, app to generate characters like D. & D. Beyond.  Even as a first day adopter of Champions, back in 1981, I have trouble with the math. But having a separate app, for $25, otherwise, getting stuck in math world, seems a bit distancing, or unfair in comparison. New products to attract new players, should probably follow the pattern of Champions begins. That would mean a something like fantasy, hero begins, and something based on modern adventures, modern Adventures without superpowers.

 

 

[Cygnia]

WoTC blinks

 

Wizards of the Coast Cancels OGL Announcement After Online Ire

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

. If Hero is so easy why are there so many How do I? Question are on this site? 

 

 

I have been here for _years_, and honestly, I have wondered that, too.

 

If you are opinion shopping, mine is that the internet let's millions of people with whom you would otherwise never have any truck share their opinions with you.

 

You think you have your head wrapped around something, and hear people tell you that you clearly havent, or that something is too hard, or too broken, or some other thing that makes you question yourself, so you start hunting answers, looking for a "right" way.

 

Why else would the rules have swollen to ten times their origin so size?  Some people just dont trust themselves, and are hunting for a perfect right way.

 

Some folks are just looking for ideas or another point of view.  As an example, the guy looking to build the hologram character a couple of daya ago: he showed up with workable ideas.  I suspecr he was just looking for inspiration as to other ideas for the character.

 

HERO doesn't have a huge following, but it has a devoted following, with most of us falling in love with it at some point in the 80s or 90s.  That didnt happen because we took special classes or held large online-discussions.  It happened because it is fairly easy to grasp the five mechanics that run the game:

 

Skill check: 11 or less adjust with modifiers.

 

Opposed Skill checks (such as roll to hit) fall under this, as they are nothing more than a way to resolve two rolls at once.

 

Count damage

 

Determine multiples (later, this became levels of success

 

Deduct Defenses

 

Apply effects, though I dont count this as a mechanic because every game does this.  Damage, endurance, multiple/ levels above target characteristic, sanity, whatever.

 

Everything else falls into place.

 

Even character building boils down to nothing more rhan determining how much of what kind of defense  you want this character to deduct, how many and what modifiers you want to what skill checks, and what kind of damage or multiple/ levels of success you wish him to consistently return.

 

Then color him up with special effects.  We picked That up  with one reading and two or three sessions of play- just like every other game out there.

 

HERO isnt any more difficult to learn than any other game, and way easier than some (looking at you, Aftermath and Pheonix Command and Universe and Living Steel and so on).

 

The only problem-  and I have said this a lot, but recently-  is the core rules _books_.  Push Basic as the core rules.  Do not push the massive encyclopedia.  Rebrand That as Advanced.  The problem is the core rules present a ridiculous number of options- so many that it is now possible to play a HERO game unrecognizable to any 1984 gaming table.

 

Stop doing that.  I have no idea why- probably tied to the increasing percentage of people with anxiety, but analysis paralysis is a real thing, and- again, if you are opinion shopping-  _this_ is the only thing that makes HERO 'difficult.'

 

Stop with all the God/×[%+ "options" and calling them core rules.  "Advanced guides" are the place for options.

 

Wait-  we have those, too.  Ans they are full of more options!

 

Pur them all there, or cull them out completely; I don't care.  But id you want to attract new players, get them out of the core rules.  There is a significant number of potential customers who just cant handle it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Opal]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

everytime some one points out the flaws of (especially) D&D and say Hero is better never really look at the issue and see if Hero really is easier

D&D's biggest issue isn't that it's hard - it is, especially to run - it's that it's utterly broken to the point fighter and magic-user are playing entirely different games, and the game falls back constantly on the DM to fix it on the fly. ...and one could fill volumes. Its the worst significant TTRPG of all time.

 

Hero is complex and hard to learn, too, but once you learn it, it's a functional system.

(I want to say, "except for skills," but that's not the point)

 

It's just that the vast majority of potential new TTRPG fans have /only/ heard of D&D.  So if they try D&D and, reasonably, find it to be a bad experience, they figure they don't like TTRPGs, and never try Hero or anything else.

 

[Cygnia]

Right now, the hubby's Friday game is discussing dumping 5e and switching to a new game system entirely (sadly, HERO will not be an option, mostly WoD or SWADE choices).  They've already cancelled their DND Beyond subscriptions/accounts.

[Old Man]

WotC has finally deigned to post a statement on the OGL self-own.

 

Tl;dr: Lies. 

 

"We always meant to get community input, it's just a draft": No, you sent that out to third parties for signatures, that's why it got leaked.

 

"Stealing other people's work never crossed our minds": And yet you wrote it into 1.1.

 

"We just wanted to prevent hateful content": This was hardly even touched on in 1.1.

 

Community reaction has been unsurprisingly negative.

[Cygnia]

[Cygnia]

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If this really was the time for hero games to step up, then it would need a free, web based, app to generate characters like D. & D. Beyond.

 

I agree. I know that Hero Designer is an earner for the company, but its a false economy.  Yes, it makes money from people who play Hero, but its a barrier to people learning to play Hero, and new potential customers.  Its like when comic book companies abandoned the spin racks and went to direct sales only.  This worked for a while, because it coincided with the collector boom and existing comic book fans loved it.

 

But it hurt comics by creating a foolish, pointless barrier to new customers, they stopped getting new young comic book readers because their product was hidden behind a wall by sticking the comics in specialty shops.

 

Quote

everytime some one points out the flaws of (especially) D&D and say Hero is better never really look at the issue and see if Hero really is easier

 

I think that's rare.  Almost every gamer has played D&D, and is familiar with its mechanics.  Almost every Hero player started with other systems and embraced Hero because its just better.

[Beast]

18 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Just had to sent an e-mail to Customer Support to delete my DND Beyond account.  We'll see how long THAT takes...

cancel it through your bank to be sure and faster

 

[Cygnia]

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

cancel it through your bank to be sure and faster

 

I never got a paid subscription thankfully.

[Cygnia]