Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

Push felt really long to me and didn't deliver on all that time and effort spent to set things up.  I found it pretty disappointing and uneven.

 

Eternals isn't getting great reviews from anyone, basically people are saying "didn't develop any of its too-many characters at all, convoluted, dense (lots of people saying dense and not in a good way), and does not feel like part of the Marvel Universe".  I wish Marvel would stop doing this kind of thing, they tried so hard to make Inhumans the next X-Men.  They need to stop giving unexperienced new directors major movies just because they tick off a diversity box as well.

 

The formula that works is this:

Great, established director

Great writing based on excellent character development and stories from comics

Solid, talented casting

 

The original Superman, Tim Burton Batman, Iron Man, all the comic book movies that really worked, did this.  All the movies that didn't work or sucked, didn't use this formula. As a BBC reviewer puts it:

 

Quote

Hiring a writer-director who specialises in muted, documentary-like dramas for an action spectacular about interstellar demigods may not have been the wisest choice

 

[zslane]

Eternals has Celestials in it, which are elemental forces in the MCU, ergo Eternals is unambiguously an MCU movie. I get that it doesn't hew to the MCU formula like an Avengers movie does, but Guardians of the Galaxy stepped away from the usual formula (by featuring an entire team of C-level unknowns who did not get their own movies first before the team-up movie, and by making no mention of other MCU characters) and it was a big success. I think if Eternals flops it won't be because it is different from a typical MCU movie, but because it fails to pack enough fun surprises to generate that "you gotta see it" hype.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The post credit scenes I won't spoil might generate some interest but... 

 

The thing is, having characters that are Marvel comic book guys doesn't really make them feel like an MCU film.  The fun quality does.  Guardians was different but... kind of in a bad way, that has in my opinion tarnished every marvel film since then.

[csyphrett]

And the first trailers didn't help because it paints the characters as just standing around and doing nothing. The trailers should have focused more on the secret war going on. 

CES 

[Bazza]

The other thing is, that The Eternals aren’t really within the marvel universe, they were grafted into it later*. Kirby wrote it as a stand-alone series*. 
 

*from memory interview with Kurt Busiak.

[zslane]

The Eternals could be said to be the Marvel version of DC's New Gods, but they have been part of Marvel's 616 continuity since 1976. However they came to be in the Marvel universe is pretty irrelevant; they are every bit as much a part of the Marvel universe as any other cosmic entities such as the Titans or Galactus.

[Lord Liaden]

Ultimately the only movie review that matters to me is mine. I've been at odds with critics, and even the fans of a given franchise, on many occasions. I'm going to see this one, because I was a fan of the comics, including after the Eternals were integrated into Marvel continuity. I'll make up my own mind then.

[Bazza]

4 hours ago, Bazza said:

The other thing is, that The Eternals aren’t really within the marvel universe, they were grafted into it later*. Kirby wrote it as a stand-alone series*. 
 

*from memory interview with Kurt Busiak.

Found the interview http://www.oocities.org/brenni_au/Kurt.html

[Christopher R Taylor]

I mean... they have long been kinda part of the marvel universe?  But not really, since almost nobody writes anything involving them other than the really unfortunate Starfox.  Plus there's a baffling continuity problem where these are supposed to be the origin of the ancient gods and goddesses... except all of them are actually in the marvel universe as well so there's duplicates?    Its a very odd choice for the MCU.

[dmjalund]

maybe they were the morphic resonance that shaped the gods. 1) the humans saw them and worshiped them. 2) when  the Eternals themselves were absent, the humans beliefs shaped the gods.

[Lord Liaden]

I remember when there was a throwdown between the Eternals and the Olympian gods in the pages of Thor's magazine. At one point Hercules confronted the Eternal who would ultimately be known as Gilgamesh, who revealed that he performed some of the labors attributed to Herc. The Lion of Olympus took offense to that.

 

[Greywind]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean... they have long been kinda part of the marvel universe?  But not really, since almost nobody writes anything involving them other than the really unfortunate Starfox.  Plus there's a baffling continuity problem where these are supposed to be the origin of the ancient gods and goddesses... except all of them are actually in the marvel universe as well so there's duplicates?    Its a very odd choice for the MCU.

 

Sersi was an Avenger for a while.

[Starlord]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I remember when there was a throwdown between the Eternals and the Olympian gods in the pages of Thor's magazine. At one point Hercules confronted the Eternal who would ultimately be known as Gilgamesh, who revealed that he performed some of the labors attributed to Herc. The Lion of Olympus took offense to that.

 

 

Did he give him a 'gift'? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Sersi was an Avenger for a while.

 

Yeah her and Starfox are the only ones I can think of in 60 years of Marvel Comics being used outside Kirby's short run with them.

[Hugh Neilson]

As I recall, Makkari hung out with the Silver Surfer for a while, the Eternals as a whole appeared for some time in Thor back in the '80s, Gilgamesh/Forgotten One spent some time as an Avenger and I recall Ikaris guest-starring in an Invaders story a few years back. Like many characters without their own book, they show up (individually or as a group) here and there.

[csyphrett]

Makkari is also the basis for the golden age Hurricane and Mercury and was on Bloodstone's monster hunter team

CES

[Pariah]

Ah, Bloodstone. There's a name I haven't heard in a while.

 

Fun tangential thought: The Deadpool movies were a big success. How about a big screen (or even Disney+) adaptation of "Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E."? We've got Monica Rambeau in the MCU now...

[csyphrett]

15 hours ago, Pariah said:

Ah, Bloodstone. There's a name I haven't heard in a while.

 

Fun tangential thought: The Deadpool movies were a big success. How about a big screen (or even Disney+) adaptation of "Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E."? We've got Monica Rambeau in the MCU now...

She's probably going to be in the Marvels movie when it comes out. I have to admit when I hear that title I think of Busiek/Ross's Marvels but I guess this will be more of an avengers style team movie instead of a trip through space and time

CES 

[Spence]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:07 AM, zslane said:

Eternals has Celestials in it, which are elemental forces in the MCU, ergo Eternals is unambiguously an MCU movie. I get that it doesn't hew to the MCU formula like an Avengers movie does, but Guardians of the Galaxy stepped away from the usual formula (by featuring an entire team of C-level unknowns who did not get their own movies first before the team-up movie, and by making no mention of other MCU characters) and it was a big success. I think if Eternals flops it won't be because it is different from a typical MCU movie, but because it fails to pack enough fun surprises to generate that "you gotta see it" hype.

 

Ummmm....no.

 

GotG may have swerved to another side of the MCU, but they still adhered to the MCU's primary success formula.

 

1) Character development of witty and entertaining characters.

2) ACTION and adventure with more ACTION and ADVENTURE!!!

3) Directors/Production that understood the concept of a comic.

4) Writers that actually understood dialog.

etc.

 

The relative flops were the shows that watered down those points, especially #'s 1 and 2. 

 

From what I have been told by people that have seen Eternals, is that anyone that could deliver #'s 1 through 4 were immediately banned from the state of California until the movie release.

No real character development, dialog randomly delivered into scenes with no purpose but you could tell that it was supposed to be humorous, disjointed seemingly random action, forced dialog and narrative monologues intended to let the audience know what was happening.

 

A real shame considering the cast they had.  My guess is that they made a fantastic movie and the great parts are on the editing room floor. 

 

 

On 10/30/2021 at 9:57 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean... they have long been kinda part of the marvel universe?  But not really, since almost nobody writes anything involving them other than the really unfortunate Starfox.  Plus there's a baffling continuity problem where these are supposed to be the origin of the ancient gods and goddesses... except all of them are actually in the marvel universe as well so there's duplicates?    Its a very odd choice for the MCU.

 

Odd maybe, but if it had received a real MCU style comic book movie treatment it could have been great.  They had the cast to do it and a tremendous open palette to tell a story of adventure and action.  But then.........   

[zslane]

20 hours ago, Spence said:

GotG may have swerved to another side of the MCU, but they still adhered to the MCU's primary success formula.

 

I think we are largely agreeing. To most viewers, the Eternals appear to be as connected to the rest of the MCU as the Guardians of the Galaxy did when their first movie came out (which is to day, not very). "Fitting in" isn't that big of an issue. It is the fun factor, along with the elements you mention that really matters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the problem people have with the Eternals fitting in isn't so much tone and style as the fact that it takes place on earth, but has no interaction with any other Marvel characters or history.  Its just a separate story with them fighting Bad Guys Who Have Always Been With Us but had no interaction or appearance with the MCU at all, in ways that have nothing to do with any other MCU film, etc.  Its like doing a series of stories about the French and Indian wars in the USA then doing a big story about big groups who just happen to be there at the same time but never showed up before and have nothing to do with Indians, Frenchmen, or the British troops.

 

The Guardians of the Galaxy honestly don't fit into the Marvel Cinematic Universe except very tangentially with a few small appearances in the last two Avengers movies.  They're almost entirely disconnected when not stitched into the Big Story. 

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The Guardians of the Galaxy honestly don't fit into the Marvel Cinematic Universe except very tangentially

 

Indeed. And yet they are fun enough to watch that the movies do well at the box office. Being obviously connected to the larger MCU tapestry does not seem to be a necessary component for success. On the "connectivity" front, it should be sufficient for Celestials to be a part of The Eternals storyline. If that movie fails to connect with audiences, I don't think it will be because of its lack of interaction with other MCU characters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Being obviously connected to the larger MCU tapestry does not seem to be a necessary component for success.

 

I see a difference though: GoG was set in outer space so it was necessarily disconnected from the stuff going on with earth.  When you put out a big new movie about super powered beings on earth, but then have no connection at all to previous movies set on earth... that's a bit different.  Part of what people have really enjoyed about previous MCU films is the interconnectivity, it felt like the same place with interacting characters and movies meshing together.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Being obviously connected to the larger MCU tapestry does not seem to be a necessary component for success.

 

I see a difference though: GoG was set in outer space so it was necessarily disconnected from the stuff going on with earth.  When you put out a big new movie about super powered beings on earth, but then have no connection at all to previous movies set on earth... that's a bit different.  Part of what people have really enjoyed about previous MCU films is the interconnectivity, it felt like the same place with interacting characters and movies meshing together.

 

So, no inclusion for FF or X-Men in the MCU?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

So, no inclusion for FF or X-Men in the MCU?

 

Not sure how you'd think that, unless they decided to put them into the MCU on earth as if none of the other previous movies or characters were in it.