Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Bazza]

The production (producers, writers, directors etc) went out of their way to avoid negative stereotypes & tropes. 

[Grailknight]

18 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

 

I generally liked it. My only major gripe was the immortal supervillain with super powers who could have conquered the entire world before 1500 (and that seemed to be his goal), but instead turns into a reclusive crimelord. Um...okay?

 

I actually didn't mind this for a couple of reasons.

 

One, while he is powerful, he's not invincible. Snipers would be a major issue. His troops are just guys and he doesn't really have any powers that will cause large area destruction. Sounds like a crime lord powerset. And crime lords have a hard time building a word conquering organization, especially with the communications available at the time. Out of universe, China may have seen that as too close to the Fu Manchu issue. 

 

Two, China is insular.  Ruling China would be seen as ruling everything important. The Mongols were expansionist but they and the Chinese were at a state of passive resistance not unity. So controlling crime in China was probably the goal at the time. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Mandarin is not a Chinese term.  It is a Western term for a Chinese bureaucrat.

 

You figure the Chinese call those oranges Mandarin?  It makes at least if not more sense for someone to use the term when they refer to themselves to westerners because that's something they'd be familiar with and their true name is hidden.  The line was ridiculous, and just desperate spinning "See?  See? We're not doing that old stuff, we hate it, please show our movie in China!" 

 

Mocking your own source material to curry favor with one market that is already hostile to you is just ludicrous.  And it didn't work.  It just annoys long-term fans pointlessly.

[zslane]

Pandering to a country like China is a futile and, ultimately, doomed business strategy. I wonder how long it will take Hollywood to realize this.

[Old Man]

13 minutes ago, zslane said:

Pandering to a country like China is a futile and, ultimately, doomed business strategy. I wonder how long it will take Hollywood to realize this.

 

Top ten MCU releases sorted by returns at the Chinese box office (per IMDb data):

1. "Avengers: Endgame" (2019) — $629.1 million
2. "Avengers: Infinity War" (2018) — $359.5 million
3. "Avengers: Age of Ultron" (2015) — $240.1 million
4. "Spider-Man: Far From Home" (2019) — $199 million
5. "Captain America: Civil War" (2016) — $180.8 million
6. "Captain Marvel" (2019) — $154.07 million
7. "Ant-Man and the Wasp" (2018) — $121.203 million
8. "Iron Man 3" (2013) — $121.200 million
9. "Spider-Man: Homecoming" (2017) — $116.3 million
10. "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" — $115.6 million

 

Shang-Chi isn't going to be on the list because Shang-Chi wasn't released in China. 

[Spence]

11 hours ago, Old Man said:

Mandarin is not a Chinese term.  It is a Western term for a Chinese bureaucrat.

 

I just watched it a couple days ago and I think people are reaching to try and find something to be upset about. 

The movie wasn't the best one, but I thought it was better than the Dark World, Iron Man 3 and Endgame.

 

As far as his comment about the mandarin and the orange.  I took it as him being sarcastic and scornful toward the entire idea that someone had even tried to impersonate him. 

 

All in all the movie wasn't bad and I enjoyed it.  It isn't Captain America 1, but it wasn't IM3 either.

[Ninja-Bear]

I did make a character after the movie based on the ten rings-heroic naturally. Those rings in the movie were great visuals and I think it fitted in better with a Superhero movie. 

[Ternaugh]

I watched it on Disney+ yesterday, and found the movie to be entertaining.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I did make a character after the movie based on the ten rings-heroic naturally. Those rings in the movie were great visuals and I think it fitted in better with a Superhero movie. 

 

It was a superhero movie......wasn't it?  Shang-Chi.....   Hero + Powers.  

 

2 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

I watched it on Disney+ yesterday, and found the movie to be entertaining.

 

Then from my view point it was mission accomplished.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think they greatly missed an opportunity to make a movie that was basically James Bond+Bruce Lee which is what the bulk of the comic's run was.

[Ninja-Bear]

I talked to a buddy at work who lived in China for 15 years and has a wife from there. Mandarin the word isn’t racist. However mainland China hates the actor for what he said about China. 

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think they greatly missed an opportunity to make a movie that was basically James Bond+Bruce Lee which is what the bulk of the comic's run was.

 

I would have loved that too but doing it right would have meant using the Fu Manchu stuff which they no longer have rights to and which carries rons of baggage.

[Lord Liaden]

Christopher and Grailknight, I think that's a reasonable viewpoint. But it's clear that Marvel set out to make a "wire-fu" style martial arts movie, because that's a popular and widely known genre for today's audience, and that style lends itself to superhuman feats. Shang-Chi is the most suitable vehicle for that purpose, especially since Iron Fist sputtered out on television. Plus, Marvel just addressed the James Bond analogy with Black Widow.

[Grailknight]

I agree.

 

That's why I was pleasantly surprised with what they did come up with. They managed to keep the core of his origin while changing all the surrounding details.  Now he has the potential to bridge the martial and mystic worlds of the MCU.

[Spence]

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Christopher and Grailknight, I think that's a reasonable viewpoint. But it's clear that Marvel set out to make a "wire-fu" style martial arts movie, because that's a popular and widely known genre for today's audience, and that style lends itself to superhuman feats. Shang-Chi is the most suitable vehicle for that purpose, especially since Iron Fist sputtered out on television. Plus, Marvel just addressed the James Bond analogy with Black Widow.

 

3 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

I agree.

 

That's why I was pleasantly surprised with what they did come up with. They managed to keep the core of his origin while changing all the surrounding details.  Now he has the potential to bridge the martial and mystic worlds of the MCU.

 

I didn't think of it that way until you said it.  But it fits. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Using less known characters gives Marvel options to customize their fit into the MCU. Classic Shang-Chi martial arts + James Bond would not have been a good fit to the rest of the MCU, likely leaving Shang-Chi as a separate line of movies with a tangential MCU connection. The manner in which they handled the character allows interaction with the broader superheroic MCU.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If martial arts + James Bond doesn't fit the marvel universe where does that leave Black Widow, which is claimed to have been that very thing?  The truth is, there's lots of room for a fun, witty, and exciting spy story in the MCU, but here's the flaw with their system:

 

They don't do movies.  They do huge arcs of movies.  So each film is largely irrelevant in its self and only presented as a chapter in their Big Story.  Iron Man was just about the only exception to that pattern in the films.  His films were mostly reactions to the events that had happened rather than part of their Big Story pattern.  They wanted x plot and events to move along their Big Story, so Shang Chi was written to be that kind of part.  Eternals is another piece, whether it works or makes sense individually or not.  Doing a smart, fun, self-enclosed movie that might also be a part of the larger arc is harder to do and doesn't really fit their system.

 

But while Guardians of the Galaxy was a bit of a risk, it was a safe and calculated one, nested among several monster hits.  If it flopped, well they moved the Big Story along, and made a billion on either side of it, so they could handle it.  The Eternals was an even bigger risk, since they haven't had a monster hit since 2019 and for whatever reason, their latest films have struggled to pull in significant profit.  At roughly  $400 million to make, promote, and distribute, Eternals has not yet made a profit, but looks like it might pull Shang Chi level percentage earnings in a week or two (cost around 300 million total, earn 400 million).  But, despite somewhat tepid reviews, Eternals is doing better overall.

 

What's lost is the excitement, mystique, and anticipation that MCU films used to bring to the table.  It feels too formulaic and corporate to many viewers these days, and the characters are less compelling and familiar.  I don't think pointing to one success and saying "it worked once, it can again!" is a very reasonable response.

[slikmar]

19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But, despite somewhat tepid reviews, Eternals is doing better overall.

I actually think, due to the early critic reviews, Eternals will be helped by word of mouth, if given the time. Most of us who have seen it have come here and said we liked it, which, it seems, may have changed some opinions on seeing it.

[zslane]

22 hours ago, Spence said:

As far as his comment about the mandarin and the orange.  I took it as him being sarcastic and scornful toward the entire idea that someone had even tried to impersonate him.

 

That's exactly how I read that scene.

 

I found the movie to be pretty fun and entertaining. However, I have to say that I didn't particularly care for the two leads. Simu Liu simply didn't radiate the kind of charisma I expected from a character (originally, and forever in my heart) meant to be a Bruce Lee analog. Also, I'm not an Akwafina fan so the Katy character pretty much just annoyed me. I did like the sister character, and it is always awesome to see Michelle Yeoh on screen. Also, I was disappointed that they didn't develop the henchman with the cool mask more; he/she was probably the most intriguing villain in the whole movie (for me, anyway).

 

The big battle at the end was kinda fun, though it felt a bit rushed narratively. Overall, the fight scenes were a fun mixture of wuxia fantasy and classic Jackie Chan set pieces. I'm not sure how I feel about Shang-Chi turned into something more akin to a Mortal Kombat character than an idealized paragon of pure kung fu mastery. But I guess that's why the movie was titled Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings and not the more traditional Shang-Chi Master of Kung-Fu.

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

What's lost is the excitement, mystique, and anticipation that MCU films used to bring to the table.  It feels too formulaic and corporate to many viewers these days, and the characters are less compelling and familiar.  I don't think pointing to one success and saying "it worked once, it can again!" is a very reasonable response.

 

 

I think the excitement will be built around the launches of FF and X-Men. Spider-Man gave them a big shot in the arm and I think these two will also. Remember the MCU was built while Marvel didn't have the movie rights to their three largest comics properties.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I think the excitement will be built around the launches of FF and X-Men.

 

I am hesitant to be excited by either based on what we've seen over the decades, but I tentatively hope they can do the FF justice. We'll know pretty quickly if that's true or not based on if they choose an established, tainted, creative director or some newcomer that happens to check off a few identity boxes.

 

Quote

I actually think, due to the early critic reviews, Eternals will be helped by word of mouth, if given the time.

 

Its possible.  I want it to be a great movie that's a lot of fun but nobody's review, even the most positive, portray it that way.

[Spence]

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

I think the excitement will be built around the launches of FF and X-Men.

 

Only if it is actually about FF and X.

 

I know that they can use some of the recent garbage comics to justify just about anything.  But Marvel stopped writing about their superheroes 10, 15 years ago when they abandoned comics to be agenda docs. 

 

 

[Pariah]

I'm not sure why people get all anxious about a Fantastic Four movie. Pixar did two of them, and one of them (the first) is arguably one of the greatest superhero movies ever made.

[Greywind]

Because it wasn't the FF.

[Ternaugh]