Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Pattern Ghost]

7 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

They were all wearing riot gear. But there was no riot.

 

This is just silly. Does the person who wrote this think that you can equip a force with riot gear on the fly? I wore full riot gear to stand on the line when the base already had a pre-arrangement with perfectly peaceful protestors to stand out a while, then cross our property line to be arrested so they could get their protestor cred. If you don't have riot gear on before the riot, you won't have it on if one erupts.

[Pattern Ghost]

5 hours ago, wcw43921 said:

I'll say it again--if you voted for Trump, this is what you voted for.

 

Lincoln Memorial, WWII Memorial defaced by vandals in rioting

 

To me, it seems reasonable to protect the monuments from further vandalism.

 

 

[Cygnia]

White Supremacist Congressman Steve King Defeated In Shock GOP Primary

[Cancer]

Not that we matter at all, but the American Astronomical Society has made a statement.

 

The American Physical Society (glancing at their page and their policy statements) seems to take more time before issuing statements on that sort of thing.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Lincoln Memorial, WWII Memorial defaced by vandals in rioting

 

To me, it seems reasonable to protect the monuments from further vandalism.

 

 

 

There were a few spray-painted slogans on several monuments in Washington. IME when something of that nature happens during a protest, the slogans are cleaned off, and maybe a few security guards are posted there. Not dozens of armed soldiers

[Cancer]

Could be they're worried about Abe getting out of his chair and giving the latter-day resident of the White House a good thrashing.

[Cygnia]

[csyphrett]

1 hour ago, Cancer said:

Could be they're worried about Abe getting out of his chair and giving the latter-day resident of the White House a good thrashing.

Somebody already posted something on twitter at the hall of presidents where the Lincoln robot throws an axe at the Trump robot during a speech

CES 

[DShomshak]

As far as vandalism goes, here in The Other Washington we've had to shell out several thousand taxpayer dollars to clean the steps of the state capitol after one of the anti-lockdown protests and counter-protests. See, a couple people from the Temple of Satan stood there (not sure what side they were on, it wasn't in the news story). Afterward, our nuttiest state rep, Republican Matt Shea (who has been censured for circulating a tract on the proper Christian way to engage in civil war and has been implicated in domestic terrorism) poured olive oil on the steps where he thought the Satanists had stood. Part of some kind of exorcism, I guess. Anyway, the marble steps are somewhat porous to oil, so he created a stain that is very difficult to remove. Hence the cost.

 

So, our marble monuments are a bit more delicate than you might think. But dozens of soldiers in riot gear seems a bit, hm, melodramatic.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

To quote Godzilla King of the Monsters: "It's an intimidation display."

[Pattern Ghost]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

There were a few spray-painted slogans on several monuments in Washington. IME when something of that nature happens during a protest, the slogans are cleaned off, and maybe a few security guards are posted there. Not dozens of armed soldiers

 

You have a lot of experience with spray painting monuments, hmm? We'll have to look into that....

 

Seriously, though: I don't see the problem with guarding the monuments, though I understand that with this particular moron in chief, it's only a piece of the larger picture. IMO, the shenanigans in front of the White House are the bigger concern, and what should be focused on.

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

we've had to shell out several thousand taxpayer dollars to clean the steps of the state capitol

 

Not to mention the millions in property damage to Seattle and surrounding cities, including 8 torched police vehicles on Saturday night.

[TrickstaPriest]

3 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Not to mention the millions in property damage to Seattle and surrounding cities, including 8 torched police vehicles on Saturday night.

 

If it makes you feel any better, this will probably be the biggest/last protest in human history that lasts any length of time.

 

Because the counter tactics to incite damage and counter narrative have been so effective that it's entirely crushed the back of anyone who wants to protest anything related to this topic.  This display has ensured it will probably never happen again.

 

--

 

This isn't to excuse the ones who've done this.  It's to highlight the brutality in which the group in front of the White House were treated because of incidents elsewhere.

 

A number of protesters did it, so all must be treated as though they are equal threat.

 

The difference between that and being angry at the police activity is the level of armament, legal protection, support, and intent of government, on top of how much those activities are hidden.

 

I seem to explicitly recall an investigation/leak of a police authority having given toy guns out to their officers (with the implicit idea that they'd be left with bodies of people that were accidentally shot).  But I can't find that resource right now... (ie- am I remembering correctly, or not?)

[Ranxerox]

4 hours ago, DShomshak said:

As far as vandalism goes, here in The Other Washington we've had to shell out several thousand taxpayer dollars to clean the steps of the state capitol after one of the anti-lockdown protests and counter-protests. See, a couple people from the Temple of Satan stood there (not sure what side they were on, it wasn't in the news story). Afterward, our nuttiest state rep, Republican Matt Shea (who has been censured for circulating a tract on the proper Christian way to engage in civil war and has been implicated in domestic terrorism) poured olive oil on the steps where he thought the Satanists had stood. Part of some kind of exorcism, I guess. Anyway, the marble steps are somewhat porous to oil, so he created a stain that is very difficult to remove. Hence the cost.

 

So, our marble monuments are a bit more delicate than you might think. But dozens of soldiers in riot gear seems a bit, hm, melodramatic.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

From the pictures that I have seen the spray painting seems to be limited to concrete structures near what we generally think of as the actual monument and not on the marble structures.

[Pariah]

Trump's former defense secretary Mattis blasts president as a threat to American democracy

 

Noting his own oath to uphold the Constitution when he first joined the military, Mattis wrote, "Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens – much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside."

[TrickstaPriest]

Yeah.  As frustrated I am at the damage, the tactics being used on the protesters is a lot scarier to me.

[ScottishFox]

Well so far they've killed 11-12 people - many of whom were black.  David Dorn being a real standout.  Even George Floyd's brother is asking for the rioting and looting to stop.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/david-dorn-st-louis-police-shot-trnd/index.html

 

https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/at-least-11-killed-during-u-s-protests-seeking-justice-for-george-floyd-many-of-them-african-americans/

 

And I want to be clear.  The dirt bag that kneeled on Geoge Floyd's neck for 9 minutes and his 3 police buddies that didn't intervene deserve harsh justice.  They are currently all charged and they need to be convicted.

If I kneeled on that cops neck for 9 minutes he wouldn't need trial.  Total scumbag.

 

Still, I can't help but think that killing back civilians and role models like David Dorn and thrashing local businesses isn't going to help.  And whoever is piling up bricks, pipes and bottles full of gasoline for the protesters deserves his own level in hell.

 

It's a serious issue that desperately needs addressing, but it needs social buy in and support.  The more innocents that die and the more buildings that burn the more support for military action goes up in the polls.  I don't want to find out if the man in front of the church will pull that lever if pushed hard enough - because I'm afraid he will.
 

[TrickstaPriest]

23 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Well so far they've killed 11-12 people - many of whom were black.  David Dorn being a real standout.  Even George Floyd's brother is asking for the rioting and looting to stop.

 

I agree on the looting and general rioting.  There are tactics being used that seem almost like they are encouraging that.  Given some incidents in past protests, I'm not surprised.  I've had to learn a lot about 'walking routes' versus 'kettling' the last few days.

 

People are also suggesting its police leaving out bricks as 'lures', but I haven't a clue.  I do know it takes a lot of resources to leave out the amount of 'weapons' in some of those locations, so whoever is doing it is willing to spend money and time/resources.  I'm sure there are a fair share of assholes too.

 

The point you are making is literally why these actions are being done, though, whoever it is.  It's very often done as sabotage for public causes, and it takes incredibly strong leadership at every location to control a protest this large.  That's just not going to happen, and history shows that even with figures like MLK, that doesn't happen then.  (the rioting after he died was a thing)

 

I've been thinking about that in the context of the 99% protests, and how effective it is to get an 'intentionally crazy/bad person' in front of the camera to babble nonsense about your cause.

 

There's also a definite presence of white supremacists in these riots too, which is why the statement "many of whom are black" does not surprise me.

 

But I also know there are general looters and rioters - we've had a few arrests here over that, too.

 

It's all of this I'm talking about when I'm talking about tactics.  You are talking about 'doing it better', but I think it's literally impossible now.  Protest is dead.

(edit- adjusted for tone/point)

----

 

As far as intent, what I've gathered is this isn't really about one black person being dead.  It's about black people being treated as "violent, armed offenders" in nearly every situation.

 

But it's also about the fact that you have millions out of work because of coronavirus, and having never had the opportunity to go out and protest in years or decades before.  It's a pretty known 'population control' strategy to keep people overworked and underpaid juuuust enough.  But now I'm getting really cynical.

[Badger]

19 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

This is just silly. Does the person who wrote this think that you can equip a force with riot gear on the fly? I wore full riot gear to stand on the line when the base already had a pre-arrangement with perfectly peaceful protestors to stand out a while, then cross our property line to be arrested so they could get their protestor cred. If you don't have riot gear on before the riot, you won't have it on if one erupts.

Maybe they pinky swore not to riot

 

 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

I agree on the looting and general rioting.  There are tactics being used that seem almost like they are encouraging that.  Given some incidents in past protests, I'm not surprised.  I've had to learn a lot about 'walking routes' versus 'kettling' the last few days.

 

People are also suggesting its police leaving out bricks as 'lures', but I haven't a clue.  I do know it takes a lot of resources to leave out the amount of 'weapons' in some of those locations, so whoever is doing it is willing to spend money and time/resources.  I'm sure there are a fair share of assholes too.

 

The point you are making is literally why these actions are being done, though, whoever it is.  It's very often done as sabotage for public causes, and it takes incredibly strong leadership at every location to control a protest this large.  That's just not going to happen, and history shows that even with figures like MLK, that doesn't happen then.  (the rioting after he died was a thing)

 

I've been thinking about that in the context of the 99% protests, and how effective it is to get an 'intentionally crazy/bad person' in front of the camera to babble nonsense about your cause.

 

There's also a definite presence of white supremacists in these riots too, which is why the statement "many of whom are black" does not surprise me.

 

But I also know there are general looters and rioters - we've had a few arrests here over that, too.

 

It's all of this I'm talking about when I'm talking about tactics.  You are talking about 'doing it better', but I think it's literally impossible now.  Protest is dead.

(edit- adjusted for tone/point)

----

 

As far as intent, what I've gathered is this isn't really about one black person being dead.  It's about black people being treated as "violent, armed offenders" in nearly every situation.

 

But it's also about the fact that you have millions out of work because of coronavirus, and having never had the opportunity to go out and protest in years or decades before.  It's a pretty known 'population control' strategy to keep people overworked and underpaid juuuust enough.  But now I'm getting really cynical.

I have pondered that 2 months of build up  cabin fever has amped the crazy

[TrickstaPriest]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

I have pondered that 2 months of build up  cabin fever has amped the crazy

 

I mean, it's more than that.  A lot of people are on unemployment.  A lot of people don't see the financial divide improving, even when they return to work.  Return to what?  What kind of career path or improvement do they expect?  There's literally no hope for things to get better.  That's my best guess from the people on the ground floor.

 

Going up things don't get better.  Because all of that is before we talk about other problems (like climate change, surveillance, control).  As things escalate, our value as "Human Capital Stock" will drop.  The world will essentially be owned by financial capitalists... people like Bezos, and all things will be to benefit them.  How long will it be before there's no point in even giving people access to newer medicines, life extension technology?  How long before the basics are unnecessary to maintain, because a few hundred people can run an entire nation?

 

This is the stuff that has been talked about for over a decade in my school and tech circles.  Unemployment soaring to record numbers has been the only thing that's lifted people's face off grinding on the cement for money.  So 'amped up the crazy' is sure true, more than that, they aren't being crushed by spending every waking moment scraping together money for basics... for now.

 

I don't know of a single person in my entire field that thinks things are going to get better, because we can't make any progress even on little things, let alone the issues that will literally destroy us.

 

There's literally no future and no hope.

 

--

 

Stuff like this doesn't help.

 

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/earn-it-bill-governments-not-so-secret-plan-scan-every-message-online

[Lord Liaden]

The world goes through cycles of bad and good. I've had the great fortune to live most of my life in a time and place of unprecedented peace, prosperity, and opportunities. If it's now my turn to fight and suffer so those who come after me can experience some of what I have, so be it.

[Old Man]

[Cygnia]

[Lee]

Quote

“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”

---Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)