Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Joe Walsh]

This article is a nice summation of some of the obvious ways Republicans could go about actually fixing Obamacare:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/nine-ways-to-really-fix-obamacare/2017/06/30/dc5a8fc4-5cfc-11e7-a9f6-7c3296387341_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-e%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.e0b720626339

 

I don't completely agree with every aspect, but it would be a much better starting point than "Let's take Medicaid away from people who can't afford any alternative."

[Lectryk]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/politics/dean-heller-health-care/index.html

 

Still likely to pass. Whatever his other record, I respect the choice to do what he feels is in the interest of his constituents despite an immeasurable level of pressure from his party.

 

Will be sad if this costs him his job in the election... assuming he doesn't cave to the pressure being brought to bear.

 

He's catching flak from billionaire Trump supporters who are Nevada businessman, and from others.  And his position is apparently being used as at least one basis for a challenge to him next election.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/us/politics/heller-trump-health-care-adelson-wynn.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[DShomshak]

Strange.  For decades, I've had a theory that, job-wise, a group's worth to society is in inverse proportion to their income.  If every CEO disappeared from the face of the Earth, for example, life would go on.  Same with every movie star.  But if, say, every fireman disappeared, things would not go well at all.  Same with police officers, teachers, farmers, etc.

 

Or mothers, who get paid nothing at all? Many statements of reverence. Not so much backup from policy.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, that's the aspect to "family values" that's usually conveniently overlooked...

[Hugh Neilson]

That's an awfully myopic view on the effects of education. "Learn Thing X so you can do Thing X for a boss"

How about "learn things that will be useful". For example:

 

It's more like PE.  There aren't many jobs that require me to do push ups. The Military and pro sports . . . and I can't think of anything else. But there's lots that require me to lift 50 pounds.  And even outside of work, there are benefits to the skill of knowing how to stay healthy and strong.

Is that what PE taught us? Or did it teach the rules for team sports, how to jump over a high jump bar while keeping within the Olympic rules, etc.? Did it include nutrition and hygiene (some programs did have a Health component), also very important to staying healthy and strong? The benefits of education are not always provided by our systems of education.

 

When I was going to college, and considering not finishing my degree, my dad pushed me to finish it even if I don't pursue a job in that field.**  When I pointed out that his degree was in agriculture, but his entire career was with an airline, he said, "You're not going to school to learn to do a specific job.  You're learning how to think."

 

Pretty wise man, my dad.

That depends a lot on the program, and the professor. Too much of our education system teaches people to repeat pre-fab answers, to accept the information they are told without questioning and to do things the same way the last guy figured out they could be done, rather than teaching people to find their own answers, assess the information they receive to form their own conclusions and determine how best to do thing, and how to improve upon them.

 

That's not what is typically required to get that diploma. And I say that as a college graduate holding a professional designation.

 

Why do schools focus on teaching literature, rather than communication skills? Mathematical concepts rather than basic financial literacy? Is it prudent to graduate students who know Pythagorean Theory and the works of Shakespeare cold, but cannot figure out how damaging ongoing credit card debt is, and struggle to convey their thoughts in written form? Perhaps there is room for both in our education systems, but if we must focus on one rather than the other, due to limited time, why do we assume people will obtain life skills by osmosis, and focus on more theoretical areas?

 

On the other hand, if we believe that society as a whole benefits from every member attaining a certain level of education, should that level of education not be available to all, rather than being restricted by economics? Society has determined that we should all complete the high school curriculum, after which education is no longer available without question or charge. Perhaps that should change - but, again, such decisions carry costs. Or should those best qualified to teach freely donate their time in the interests of society, rather than choosing other ways to use their skills and talents. In our society, wealth IS a measuring stick - in large part because it enables the individual to ensure they, and those close to them, can benefit from those things we do not believe are appropriately made available to all within our society - whether education, medical care or anything else which comes with a price tag.

 

Every society has decided what services are provided to all, and which are available only to some. In capitalist societies, the "some" is largely measured in terms of wealth. Are there other options we would consider more equitable? Say, fixed funding for education, with the selection of who benefits and who does not being driven entirely by skills and aptitudes? That is, a meritocratic approach - if your kid is not smart enough to go to college, he or she goes into the "general labour pool"?

 

I don't see a perfect answer out there anywhere.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, if I were to express a pet peeve from my Canadian perspective, we have enshrined the right to medical care. To me that is a positive.

 

But try asserting a right of access to justice - lawyers are expensive, and legal aid covers only a few areas of law, and only for the most impoverished.

 

Somehow, the right to medical care has become far more fundamental than the right to access the justice system.

[wcw43921]

NRP Tweets Declaration Of Independence--Trump Supporters Get Offended

[pinecone]

NRP Tweets Declaration Of Independence--Trump Supporters Get Offended

OK, that is kinda funny.

[Lord Liaden]

Why do the most ignorant people always seem to be the ones to shout first and loudest?

[DasBroot]

Being first and loudest is all they have - and it's success rate is, as always, alarmingly high.   If a person truly has no opinion on something then they are often open to forming their opinion based on what is being said with the most conviction.   It's why attack ads WORK and It's seen all the time in all aspects of life :a <insert thing> is bad because other people said it was, and that's good enough for someone who didn't plan on getting invested in <insert thing>.  They might repeat it, though - and the snowball rolls further down the mountain. 

 

It's just depressing and borderline dangerous when applied to politics and social issues, that's all.

 

Lisa: Better to to silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

Homer's Brain: What the hell does that mean? Quick say something clever.

 

Homer: Takes one to know one!

 

Internet 2017: He's got a valid point. Who does she think she is? Quickly, attack her credibility - that will invalidate what she said!

 

Also the Internet 2017: That's... not how discussion works.

Internet 2017: Takes one to know one!

[DShomshak]

Recommended: The July 1 issue of The Economist has a special report on "Donald Trump's America," looking at his base in several parts of the country -- what motivates them, how they differ from other Americans, and what underpins his popularity with them.

 

Short form: They tend to be deeply alienated from a culture and political system that they think doesn't respect people like them. Charts and graphs to back it all up. *Not* caused by economic hardship; it's pure status anxiety.

 

Dean Shomshak

[pinecone]

Recommended: The July 1 issue of The Economist has a special report on "Donald Trump's America," looking at his base in several parts of the country -- what motivates them, how they differ from other Americans, and what underpins his popularity with them.

 

Short form: They tend to be deeply alienated from a culture and political system that they think doesn't respect people like them. Charts and graphs to back it all up. *Not* caused by economic hardship; it's pure status anxiety.

 

Dean Shomshak

Sadly its an underpinning of much of human behavior. We're a herd animal, we want to fit in, I used to call it "In crowd, out crowd conditioning". I've known many a person who goes to church not for the spirit, but to feel superior to others.

 

"Why did you stop being a vegan?" "I didn't, not really...I just got sick of being so much better than meat eaters" Moby? Etc...So threats to our image are very serious, thats why people fear maiming more than death (often) that turns you into somebody else.

 

I know from my own sad story that shooting at me makes me angry, embarassing me fills me with Hate.

[womble]

Why do schools focus on teaching literature, rather than communication skills? Mathematical concepts rather than basic financial literacy? Is it prudent to graduate students who know Pythagorean Theory and the works of Shakespeare cold, but cannot figure out how damaging ongoing credit card debt is, and struggle to convey their thoughts in written form? Perhaps there is room for both in our education systems, but if we must focus on one rather than the other, due to limited time, why do we assume people will obtain life skills by osmosis, and focus on more theoretical areas?

 

If someone knows the Complete Works 'cold', they'll probably be able to communicate their thoughts relatively cogently. Lit classes don't just require memorisation.

 

My maths education involved learning about compound interest, as well as Pythagoras. We did Pythagoras first, because that's pretty effin' simple. It only involves powers of 2 and addition. If someone couldn't handle that, they couldn't handle compound interest equations.

 

There is definitely room for both in the system.

 

The problem with maths is that kids are taught, or learn very fast, that "maths is hard". So you end up with people asking whether measurements are offered in cm or mm when simple common sense tells you that a waist high thing is not 90mm high... Functional innumeracy is unfortunately prevalent; combine that with the Societal demands for material posessions Right the heck now!!!!! and you've got a personal credit crisis. Schools shouldn't have to teach saving-to-buy...

 

The problem as I see it with language teaching is that it's gotten too relaxed, and actual use of language has been deprioritised over appreciation of it and freedom of means of expression. You really need to know the rules before you start breaking them.

[TheDarkness]

Being first and loudest is all they have - and it's success rate is, as always, alarmingly high.   If a person truly has no opinion on something then they are often open to forming their opinion based on what is being said with the most conviction.   It's why attack ads WORK and It's seen all the time in all aspects of life :a <insert thing> is bad because other people said it was, and that's good enough for someone who didn't plan on getting invested in <insert thing>.  They might repeat it, though - and the snowball rolls further down the mountain. 

 

It's just depressing and borderline dangerous when applied to politics and social issues, that's all.

 

Lisa: Better to to silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

Homer's Brain: What the hell does that mean? Quick say something clever.

 

Homer: Takes one to know one!

 

Internet 2017: He's got a valid point. Who does she think she is? Quickly, attack her credibility - that will invalidate what she said!

 

Also the Internet 2017: That's... not how discussion works.

Internet 2017: Takes one to know one!

Unfortunately, a requirement for internet interaction and news watching is knowledge of the Gish Gallop.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

[Iuz the Evil]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/07/politics/mitch-mcconnell-bipartisan-health-care/index.html

 

Not looking promising re: passing the current ACA repeal. McConnell upsets White House by talking about speaking with Democrats on solutions.

 

Bipartisan solutions? Crazy talk

[DasBroot]

It's absolutely needed.  Otherwise whatever you ram through (like ACA in the first place) will just get repealed the next time the 'other guys' take office.

 

I just wished more of these talking heads seemed to realise that... ramming things through and then changing them is not in the benefit of the people you serve.  "No matter who wins, we lose" was the tagline for the Aliens vs Predator movie - it shouldn't be a tagline for modern politics.  

[aylwin13]

The real problem with health care is that there is no regulation regarding how much can be charged by the MDs, the hospitals, the pharmaceutical corps, and the insurance companies.

 

If there were perhaps more people could actually afford health care, instead of those listed above just getting more and more wealthy.

[Pariah]

"No matter who wins, we lose" was the tagline for the Aliens vs Predator movie - it shouldn't be a tagline for modern politics.

I'd like to steal this for the Book of Face (with appropriate recognition, of course).

[megaplayboy]

We're going to be transitioning from "there were no crimes committed" to "committing dozens of felonies is really no big deal", fairly soon.

[Sociotard]

I guess I don't see the point. Even if Trump Jr did something illegal (and that is still an if at this point), Trump will just pardon him. Trump hasn't done anything impeachable, so there's no avoiding it.

 

Just let it go and focus on the low level races so the Democrats can rebuild.

[Michael Hopcroft]

I've seen the British comedy/satire Yes, Minister show up a lot on my Youtube queue lately. I've found this clip, for some reason, really compelling in lighnt of what's going on in the USA.

 

 

Sir Humphrey Appleby (Nigel Hawthorne), the chief aide to the Minister of Administrative Affairs (who later became PM) is usually portrayed as an appalling cynic. But in this scene he makes a surprisingly impassioned defense of the idea that government should be done by people who know what they're doing -- in his case, a professional civil service. As the scene goes on he becomes more impassioned and more demanding until near the end he is in a state of righteous fury. And as the scene goes on the studio audience, who usually find Sir Humphrey's cynicism comedy gold, get audibly more and more uncomfortable as the scene hits closer and closer to home.

 

"If the right people don't have power, the wrong people will." A prescient warning not just for Britain but for the Americans as well. We are currently governed (after a fashion) by demagogues who play to Americans' basest instincts. They are worse than cynics -- they are True Believers who genuinely think they are saving the nation from itself.

[Ranxerox]

I guess I don't see the point. Even if Trump Jr did something illegal (and that is still an if at this point), Trump will just pardon him. Trump hasn't done anything impeachable, so there's no avoiding it.

 

Just let it go and focus on the low level races so the Democrats can rebuild.

 

Nope.  Obstruction of justice is the name of the game.  Traditionally, obstruction of justice is how you get yourself impeached.  Now, when Trump sacked Comey to stop the Russia investigation, he could have impeached right there. However, no one is going to impeach a sitting president over, attempting to obstruct an investigation that may be much ado over nothing.  On the other hand, if the investigation finds actual wrong doing, then Trump's attempts to obstruct it become much more actionable.

[Old Man]

I guess I don't see the point. Even if Trump Jr did something illegal (and that is still an if at this point),

Trump Jr. has admitted that he met with a Russian official for the express purpose of undermining the Clinton campaign. The email has been released, and it's pretty damning. It's a clear cut case of conspiracy to commit election fraud.

 

Trump Jr. also failed to list this meeting on his SF-86 application for security clearance--at least twice. That's perjury and it says so on the form.

 

Trump will just pardon him. Trump hasn't done anything impeachable, so there's no avoiding it.

Trump admitted to obstruction of justice in a live interview on prime time TV. That's more than they had on Nixon. That and his blatant, ongoing violations of the emoluments clause of the Constitution are absolutely impeachable. And there's still the question of how much he colluded with Russia.

 

Whether a GOP-controlled Congress will impeach is a different question.

 

 

Just let it go and focus on the low level races so the Democrats can rebuild.

The Democrats do have a lot of work to do. On that we are in full agreement.

[megaplayboy]

The SCOTUS has not yet been presented with an opportunity to rule on whether or not a sitting president can pardon people who have knowledge of impeachable offenses committed by the president. Hopefully it won't have to.

[BoloOfEarth]

When they said, "Make America Great Again" they didn't say it would be one lawyer at a time.