Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[archer]

On 4/10/2019 at 12:51 AM, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I didn't know Kirsten Gillibrand was in jail!

 

 

 

[archer]

Robert F Kennedy Jr. Invents a New Vaccine Conspiracy Theory, And It Could Kill Someone

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/robert-f-kennedy-tweets-a-ridiculous-conspiracy-theory-about-vaccinations

 

"What are we doing to our children? @CBSNews reports sharp unexplained rises in #depression + #anxiety in American teens. Shouldn’t we ask whether these trends are associated with the neurotoxic aluminum we are giving young teens in Gardasil #vaccine?"

[Toxxus]

16 hours ago, Old Man said:

Begging Trump not to do something is a great way to guarantee that he will do that thing.

 

Up to and including running for president.

 

I recall the awards show when some comedian pointed at him and said, "at least this guy will never be president."  He had a look of malice that would have made Emperor Palpatine cringe. 

 

A few years later he's president.

 

 

[Starlord]

Legislation being heard in Texas that would make it possible to execute women for abortions

 

The measure is necessary to make women more personally responsible....

[Old Man]

Without a hint of irony, I'm sure.

[Hermit]

22 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Legislation being heard in Texas that would make it possible to execute women for abortions

 

The measure is necessary to make women more personally responsible....

 

"We're going to kill the mother too... because, you know, we value life so"

 

Yeah, Irony is definitely lost

[Cygnia]

The measure is made solely to control and punish women.

[DShomshak]

Donald Trump said recently that "America is full." No room for more people. So I went to the 2019 World Almanac and looked up some numbers.

 

USA Land Area: 3,531, 905 square miles

People's Republic of China Land Area: 3,600, 947 square miles

About 2% difference.

 

USA Arable Land: 16.6%

PRC Arable Land: 12.7%

The USA has a fair bit more (though comparing the quality/productivity could be complex).

 

USA Population: 329 million

PRC Population: 1,384 million

China has 4.2 times the population of the US, and it's been quite a while since I last heard of massive famines. (Which were the result of Communist Party politics, not natural failure.) China's population is still a lot poorer, but it's catching up fast. (And the poverty, is significantly due to past mismanagement.) All in all, China seems able to continue supporting its population. It imports a lot of food and raw materials, but so does the US.

 

I conclude that the US can support a significantly larger population.

 

But then, that's an argument based on facts and numbers, which is elitist of me. I am sure that Donald Trump did not mean the US was physically or economically incapable of supporting significantly more people. What he did mean... Well, that would be speculation on my part.

 

(He did also say that immigration agencies were overwhelmed by the numbers of applicants, which is at least a claim susceptible of rational analysis. But it would also seem to be rationally solved: Hire and train more personnel.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Hermit]

There are parts of the country that will, in one form or another, PAY people to move there. There are usually provisos...but as an example of one article

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/08/these-5-states-will-pay-you-to-move-there.aspx

 

But I imagine they would like it if you spoke English and were a citizen...  which I can understand.  And people, both born in America and seeking to come here tend to prefer the big cities in California and Texas right now..  to the point of actually hollowing out areas where jobs are rare (Same as it ever was there)...but it does seem to prove that America is not "full". Some cities might be "too crowded" (And even that can often be opinion), but other places are really eager... Trump needs to do some homework.

 

I still think our fellow Americans from Puerto Rico should move in mass to states most likely to be a toss up in 2020 and register Payback would be sweet I'm sure.

[Toxxus]

18 hours ago, Cygnia said:

The measure is made solely to control and punish women.

 

Unfortunately the dialogue on this topic - as bad as it has historically been - has further devolved and the two sides essentially resemble this:

 

Variation 1:

Us - We're preserving the right of women to have control over their reproductive choices.

Them - They're murdering babies!

 

Variation 2:

Us - We're preserving the lives of the defenseless unborn.

Them - They're punishing women because they're evil!

 

This is where using a steel-man argument would be useful to both sides.

[Sociotard]

Huh, Assange is no longer under Ecuadorian asylum, has been arrested, and is now facing US extradition.  I suppose it had to happen sooner or later but it still surprised me.

[Old Man]

There were rumblings that it was imminent last week, but it's still odd that it actually happened.  Although I've been mystified that the embassy put up with the guy for so long.

[csyphrett]

The guy outlasted the potential time for his sexual assault charges. His prison cell wouldn't have been that much different from the apartment at the embassy. I guess London is prettier than Sweden or whomever filed the charge on him to make him ask for asylum

CES 

[Hugh Neilson]

What if we liven it up a bit...

 

23 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Unfortunately the dialogue on this topic - as bad as it has historically been - has further devolved and the two sides essentially resemble this:

 

Variation 1:

Us - We're preserving the right of women to have control over their reproductive choices.

Them - They're murdering babies!

 

Variation 2:

Us - We're preserving the lives of the defenseless unborn.

Them - They're punishing women because they're evil!

 

This is where using a steel-man argument would be useful to both sides.

 

Protect the rights of the parents! Really, you don't know how a kid will turn out for a long time, so we should be able to abort up to, say, age 25. 

 

Contrast with:

 

Protect the rights of the unborn.  Abstention is murder - that poor kid never even had a chance!

[Hermit]

 

 

 

 

 

[BoloOfEarth]

Ah, yes, my former employer.  No huge surprise - the attitude there about employees (well, those below management level) is that they're easily replaceable cogs, so why pay them more than the bare minimum?  Even after 15 years working there, I was barely living above paycheck to paycheck.

 

When I left JP Morgan Chase to work at the hospital, I started at a lower salary, but within 5 years I was making considerably more than I ever made at Chase.  With much better benefits, I might add.

 

I now tell people that I went from working for evil to working for good. 

[Pattern Ghost]

I just found this article on NPR about school shooting statistics and thought it interesting enough to share. I figured this would be the best place for it. It's from August 2018.

[archer]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:45 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

Ah, yes, my former employer.  No huge surprise - the attitude there about employees (well, those below management level) is that they're easily replaceable cogs, so why pay them more than the bare minimum?  Even after 15 years working there, I was barely living above paycheck to paycheck.

 

When I left JP Morgan Chase to work at the hospital, I started at a lower salary, but within 5 years I was making considerably more than I ever made at Chase.  With much better benefits, I might add.

 

I now tell people that I went from working for evil to working for good. 

 

 

A shocking number of employers continue to have that attitude no matter how many times their face is shoved into the fact that their employees aren't easily replaceable cogs.

 

I worked for a place that would give employees in some skilled occupations thousands of dollars in signing bonuses. Then they'd immediately start treating those same employees like crap for several years until their contract was about to run out.

 

At that point in time, they'd make appeals to "company loyalty" to try to get them to stick around rather than offering them respect, good working conditions, or cash even though there were a few dozen places within convenient driving distance where those same people could reap another large signing bonus plus have much better working conditions.

 

There were a lot of places in the area where those kinds of employees could work but the pool of workers was still fairly small. After a short while, everyone who wasn't a complete newcomer to the area knew that our company was the crappiest place to work. So we'd go weeks or months critically understaffed and then only be able to hire people who were new to the industry, new to the area, or extremely desperate and unable to land a job anyplace else despite every employer being critically short on skilled workers.

 

[wcw43921]

Governor William Weld To Challenge Trump For 2020 Nomination

[archer]

16 hours ago, wcw43921 said:

Governor William Weld To Challenge Trump For 2020 Nomination

 

For those who don't remember, Weld was the VP nominee for the Libertarian Party in 2016. Before that he was governor of Massachusetts from 1991-1997.

 

As happy as I am to see anyone else in the Republican primary, Weld isn't going to be a serious contender. He hasn't held elected office in 22 years. He doesn't have a donor base and he's not particularly popular (or known) even in the parts of the party which detests Trump.

 

However as near as anyone can tell, Weld is still on good terms with George W Bush from his time working in Bush's 2004 re-election campaign. So I guess it's marginally possible that the Bush's will work behind the scenes to help the Weld campaign if a more credible candidate doesn't get into the race. The Bush's combined do have an extensive donor base nationwide and a very strong political base in both TX and FL. If nothing else, they might quietly give him a few pointers and introduce him to a few people.

 

Weld is pro-choice and pro-gay rights which isn't going to bother the Bush's at all. But Weld has been for the legalization of marijuana and in 2018 joined the board of company which cultivates, processes, and dispenses cannabis in 11 US states. That, on the other hand, is something the Bush's would have trouble getting behind because they have Jeb still wanting to run for president after Trump is done and George P Bush wanting to eventually run for governor of Texas then president.

 

I think the better hope for the Not-Trump candidate would come through Bill Kristol's moderate-to-liberal establishment Republican "Never Trump" group (aka the ones who gave the rest of us NeverTrumpers a bad name in 2016).

 

I'm not particularly thrilled with their version of running the country or of running a presidential campaign. But at least this time around, unlike after the Republican convention in 2016 when they tried to get an independent to run against both Trump and Hillary, they've got enough time to actually try to recruit someone with an impressive political resume' and set up a nationwide campaign structure.

 

 

[Sociotard]

1) When Trump won the first time, he so with noticeably less money than Clinton.

2) This time, Trump has already amassed a bigger warchest  than all his Democratic opponents combined. Combined! He's raised 168 Million, They've got 86 million between them. Even if you only look at first quarter numbers, he has amassed as much (39 million) as his top three rivals combined (Sanders 18 Million, Harris 12, O'Rourke 9.4)

3) Incumbents always have an advantage over opposition.

4) Especially when the economy is doing well. The recession hasn't started yet, and I don't hate Trump enough to root for it to start.

 

So yeah, looks like 4 more years, everybody.

[Toxxus]

2 hours ago, Sociotard said:

1) When Trump won the first time, he so with noticeably less money than Clinton.

2) This time, Trump has already amassed a bigger warchest  than all his Democratic opponents combined. Combined! He's raised 168 Million, They've got 86 million between them. Even if you only look at first quarter numbers, he has amassed as much (39 million) as his top three rivals combined (Sanders 18 Million, Harris 12, O'Rourke 9.4)

3) Incumbents always have an advantage over opposition.

4) Especially when the economy is doing well. The recession hasn't started yet, and I don't hate Trump enough to root for it to start.

 

So yeah, looks like 4 more years, everybody.

 

And as awful as that sounds I can't be convinced it wouldn't have been even worse under Hillary.

 

I think team blue is going to struggle to put forth a candidate that can win the general public as they currently seem to be racing each other to the edges of the far left.

 

I'm still pretty disgusted by what they did to Bernie last time around.  There doesn't even seem to be a point in voting during the primary if you're Democrat.  The party will choose for you with their mountain of super-delegates.

[Dr.Device]

21 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

And as awful as that sounds I can't be convinced it wouldn't have been even worse under Hillary.

 

I think team blue is going to struggle to put forth a candidate that can win the general public as they currently seem to be racing each other to the edges of the far left.

 

I'm still pretty disgusted by what they did to Bernie last time around.  There doesn't even seem to be a point in voting during the primary if you're Democrat.  The party will choose for you with their mountain of super-delegates.

 

Maybe not for you personally, but if Hillary had been elected we wouldn't have concentration camps in my home state.

We wouldn't have a serial sexual abuser as our latest Supreme Court justice.

Our deficit wouldn't be skyrocketing at record pace from tax cuts that serve to concentrate wealth even more into the hands of the wealthiest.

We wouldn't have a federal government that wants to strip me of the right to exist in public.

We wouldn't be in the process of completely destroying the United States' status as a world leader.

We wouldn't be in a trade war that serves only to stoke the ego of a petulant man-child.

We wouldn't have the most corrupt administration since the Taft administration (and possibly ever).

We wouldn't have a president who takes every opportunity to stoke the fear of other.

We wouldn't have Nazis in the administration with the ear of the president.

 

Exactly how would it have been worse under Hillary?

[Toxxus]

12 minutes ago, Dr.Device said:

 

Maybe not for you personally, but if Hillary had been elected we wouldn't have concentration camps in my home state.

We wouldn't have a serial sexual abuser as our latest Supreme Court justice.

Our deficit wouldn't be skyrocketing at record pace from tax cuts that serve to concentrate wealth even more into the hands of the wealthiest.

We wouldn't have a federal government that wants to strip me of the right to exist in public.

We wouldn't be in the process of completely destroying the United States' status as a world leader.

We wouldn't be in a trade war that serves only to stoke the ego of a petulant man-child.

We wouldn't have the most corrupt administration since the Taft administration (and possibly ever).

We wouldn't have a president who takes every opportunity to stoke the fear of other.

We wouldn't have Nazis in the administration with the ear of the president.

 

Exactly how would it have been worse under Hillary?

1-  I have a hard time believing you have actual concentration camps that escaped media attention.

2-  There wasn't remotely enough evidence to convict anyone with what was brought forth.  Claiming that he's factually a serial sexual abuser is pretty extreme.

3-  I actually agree with you partially on this front.  However, congress sets the spending bills and the tax bills and with a brief exception for Bill Clinton we've run a massive deficit each year for decades because our government spends far more than it takes in and obliges itself to future debts to the tune of 100+ trillion dollars - already.

4-  No idea what you even mean here.  They're not trying to make anyone not exist.

5-  I don't believe this is happening at all.  In fact we've had some countries recently applaud the fact we're no longer ashamed to be Americans.

6-  I won't argue that his ego is a titanic monstrosity.  It is, but some of these trade deals are garbage and hurt us.  Pushing back to get fair deals is not a sign of evil.  We got a new deal with Mexico recently.

7-  Both parties do this and it's garbage.  Doesn't seem like rational discussions on issues and, gods forbid, some compromise are in fashion any more.

8-  Calling the administration Nazi's is way over the line.  Also, probably inaccurate as it stands for National Socialist and Trump has been pretty outspoken against socialism.

 

[Simon]

Please look up the origin of the "National Socialist" portion of the Nazi movement and its relation (or utter lack thereof) to socialism before continuing that particular line of reasoning.