Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[TrickstaPriest]

1 minute ago, unclevlad said:

 

Oh no.

 

No, no, no.

 

It'll get so, so, so much worse.

 

https://www.vox.com/2021/11/3/22758188/climate-change-epa-clean-power-plan-supreme-court

 

 

Yeah, I'm familiar 😕

[unclevlad]

Yep.

 

Won't be tomorrow, but within a generation or two, I think we could rename the planet Giedi Prime.

[Lord Liaden]

If the United States government actually enacts such a policy, it will be out of step with almost all the rest of the world. It will lag behind in the development of critical new technologies, and may eventually become a third-world country of little importance or influence. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more progressive regions secede, such as the west coast,

 

Of course the industrialists behind this legal challenge will be dead by then, having sucked all the profit for themselves out of the planet that they could in their lifetimes. What happens to the rest of us after they're gone doesn't concern them.

[unclevlad]

15 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

If the United States government actually enacts such a policy, it will be out of step with almost all the rest of the world. It will lag behind in the development of critical new technologies, and may eventually become a third-world country of little importance or influence. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more progressive regions secede, such as the west coast,

 

Of course the industrialists behind this legal challenge will be dead by then, having sucked all the profit for themselves out of the planet that they could in their lifetimes. What happens to the rest of us after they're gone doesn't concern them.

 

Keep going.

 

If the US throws every environmental regulation out the window, the developing countries will be totally disincentivized to implement anything.  Furthermore, this will be another massive blow with respect to US integrity.  Trust in the US, in their ability to sustain a commitment, will be eroded that much more.  The Trump pullout from Paris won't be the aberration, it'll be the New Norm.

[Lord Liaden]

 

[unclevlad]

Republicans will campaign on fear...when is the last time they didn't?

Also not sure Manchin, at least, counts as a Democrat at all.  Or a centrist.  Imposing a requirement on bilateral support is simply contrarian.

 

The downside to pushing for younger, more energetic progressives is, as I think Pariah mentioned, they sacrifice the good for the perfect too often.  I don't think policy centrists are the problem.  If your only message is "I'm not Trumpist"...yeah, that's totally a losing strategy.  If you're "we all have to agree now, so everyone, let's gather round the camp fire"...gahhhh.  You're not a decision-maker and you have no business setting policy.

[Ragitsu]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Also not sure Manchin, at least, counts as a Democrat at all.  Or a centrist.  Imposing a requirement on bilateral support is simply contrarian.

 

Guys like Mansion make the No True Scotsman fallacy look real enticing...

[Iuz the Evil]

Well, the Pubs will be feeling emboldened. Everyone knows that the Dems are going to lose Senate and House seats next year. Possibly even lose both. So…

 

Practically, accomplish anything you can. Centrist? That’s just what you can get done realistically. If that can’t be pushed through, then you cannot effectively govern. There’s no real party coalition.

 

This is makes me lament about “why do Democrats excel at policy debates and lose elections?” You also have to appeal to emotion, and have something to show at the end of your term. 

 

These are difficult days. 

[Lord Liaden]

I'm still inclined to believe that if the Democrats had put up Bernie Sanders as their candidate in 2016, we wouldn't be in the position we are now. Sanders presented an impassioned message of hope and compassion, the diametric opposite to Trump's message of fear and hatred.

 

5 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Well, the Pubs will be feeling emboldened. Everyone knows that the Dems are going to lose Senate and House seats next year. Possibly even lose both. So…

 

Practically, accomplish anything you can. Centrist? That’s just what you can get done realistically. If that can’t be pushed through, then you cannot effectively govern. There’s no real party coalition.

 

This is makes me lament about “why do Democrats excel at policy debates and lose elections?” You also have to appeal to emotion, and have something to show at the end of your term. 

 

These are difficult days. 

 

The Dems need to go balls to the wall. They have to push and advertise that they're pushing, policies that will measurably help the common folk, policies that most Americans like. If the Pubs block them the Dems have to shout from the rooftops that this help isn't getting to people because the Pubs won't allow it. Make them face consequences for obstructionism.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

14 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm still inclined to believe that if the Democrats had put up Bernie Sanders as their candidate in 2016, we wouldn't be in the position we are now. Sanders presented an impassioned message of hope and compassion, the diametric opposite to Trump's message of fear and hatred.

 

 

The Dems need to go balls to the wall. They have to push and advertise that they're pushing, policies that will measurably help the common folk, policies that most Americans like. If the Pubs block them the Dems have to shout from the rooftops that this help isn't getting to people because the Pubs won't allow it. Make them face consequences for obstructionism.

 

Sadly, I think the Bernie ship has long since sailed. I think the Reps will run on culture war BS and clean up and we'll suffer from another 10-20 years of reactionary nonsense.

[TrickstaPriest]

1 hour ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

Sadly, I think the Bernie ship has long since sailed. I think the Reps will run on culture war BS and clean up and we'll suffer from another 10-20 years of reactionary nonsense.

 

and climate change - which will continue unabated, as judging by the 'make a wish' coinflip at the final summit.

[Ranxerox]

16 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm still inclined to believe that if the Democrats had put up Bernie Sanders as their candidate in 2016, we wouldn't be in the position we are now. Sanders presented an impassioned message of hope and compassion, the diametric opposite to Trump's message of fear and hatred.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Just to be clear, I know Sanders is yesterday. But I'm sure there's an alternate universe where he ran and won in 2016, and I can still wish I was there. 😔

 

But the Democrats aren't hitting as hard as they can and they need to. As a party they've been playing it safe, trying to be moderate, for years and years, and it doesn't sell.

[Ranxerox]

Interesting article in the NYT today.  I could post it in Other News but since it has political implications, albeit rather abstract ones, I'm posting it here.

 

Ancient History Shows How We Can Create a More Equal World

[tkdguy]

31 minutes ago, Ranxerox said:

Interesting article in the NYT today.  I could post it in Other News but since it has political implications, albeit rather abstract ones, I'm posting it here.

 

Ancient History Shows How We Can Create a More Equal World

 

It's behind a pay wall. Can you tl:dr it for the rest of us?

 

Offhand though, there are too many powerful forces with a vested interest in keeping the world unequal.

[assault]

Dave Graeber is a major influence on the young dumb anarchist milieu.

 

That doesn't make him wrong, but I would take him with a grain of salt.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

What boggles me is how people are brainwashed into opposing things they know nothing about. Critical Race Theory for example. I saw an interview where a guy was "absolutely" against it, but was unable to define it (like...at all) when asked. And this anti intellectualism is growing! I just don't get it.

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

And this anti intellectualism is growing! I just don't get it.

Said the intellectual.

 

In my experience Americans have always had a mean anti-intellectual streak. What’s different now is that it’s been weaponized by corporate media with an agenda. It’s not going to get better until something stops the propaganda. In other words, it’s not going to get better. 

[Lord Liaden]

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'."

- Isaac Asimov

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'."

- Isaac Asimov

 

Not that Mr. Asimov is wrong, but it goes deeper than that.  There is a certain kind of ignorant person that fears and distrusts the intellectual, assuming that the intellectual would use their greater intellect to hoodwink the ignorant--because that's what they'd do if the roles were reversed.  In fact, hoodwinking and fraud are seen as marks of high intellect among such people, as if swindling the innocent proved that they were smarter than their victims.  Not only are such people not rare, they seem to be especially commonplace in corporate, financial, and political circles.

[Lord Liaden]

A manifestation of underlying insecurity, perhaps? That almost certainly applies to Donald Trump.

[Pariah]

12 hours ago, Old Man said:

Not that Mr. Asimov is wrong, but it goes deeper than that.  There is a certain kind of ignorant person that fears and distrusts the intellectual, assuming that the intellectual would use their greater intellect to hoodwink the ignorant--because that's what they'd do if the roles were reversed.

 

It seems that people tend to see their own qualities in the people around them. People who are good at heart tend to look for the good in others; those who are wrapped up in small-mindedness and conspiracy theories are incapable of believing that anyone else could be any different. We live in a world of mirrors without realizing it.

 

There's a saying I've heard that kind of reinforces this: If you run into a jerk one day, you've run into a jerk. If you run into a couple of jerks one day, you're probably just having a bad day. If everybody you run into during the day is a jerk, chances are the jerk is you.

 

It's apparent this was true even in New Testament times. Consider Titus 1:15: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure". 

[unclevlad]

As Veteran's Day is this week, saw a new (to me) spot today.  Soliciting contributions for the National Medal of Honor Museum.

 

Intro'd by Obama.

Continued by W.

Completed by Clinton.

 

Cool that they got all the former Presidents. 😈

[TrickstaPriest]

Something I thought about today.  

 

By the time the next pres cycle gets to the point the current one is at, we'll have a generation of teenagers who only remember the GOP as being the political party that jokes about killing Democrats.

People who are hitting about the 10 y/o now, who've grown up with that for the last 6 years will only have an understanding and memory of politics here as being a political party advocating for killing, possibly them or their parents.  As the advocates, or the target.

[Cygnia]

The Man Who Made January 6 Possible

Quote

McEntee and his enforcers made the disastrous last weeks of the Trump presidency possible. They backed the president’s manic drive to overturn the election, and helped set the stage for the January 6 assault on the Capitol. Thanks to them, in the end, the elusive “adults in the room”—those who might have been willing to confront the president or try to control his most destructive tendencies—were silenced or gone. But McEntee was there—bossing around Cabinet secretaries, decapitating the civilian leadership at the Pentagon, and forcing officials high and low to state their allegiance to Trump.