Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Old Man]

It wouldn't surprise me if it had; going by my theory of thirty-year cultural cycles, interest in supers might be about to fall off a cliff.  That said, the MCU has to hold the title for the most consistently good movie franchise in history, and I see no reason why they couldn't keep it going.  I almost want them to pull a Watterson and just end it before it begins to decline.

[megaplayboy]

7 hours ago, Old Man said:

It wouldn't surprise me if it had; going by my theory of thirty-year cultural cycles, interest in supers might be about to fall off a cliff.  That said, the MCU has to hold the title for the most consistently good movie franchise in history, and I see no reason why they couldn't keep it going.  I almost want them to pull a Watterson and just end it before it begins to decline.

I wouldn't mind if they ran out a cycle of 20-30 years of related/consecutive films, took a 5 year break, then rebooted everything.  

[Starlord]

Wonder which current character is actually a skrull?

[Christopher R Taylor]

In this universe Skrulls are persecuted good guy immigrants so probably none of them

[Lord Liaden]

It's possible that interest in the MCU has peaked, if only because they'll never come up with a bigger, more engrossing story line than this. I doubt that superhero movies as a genre are set to decline yet. The DC properties, for example, seem to just be ramping up.

[Hermit]

7 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

It's possible that interest in the MCU has peaked, if only because they'll never come up with a bigger, more engrossing story line than this. I doubt that superhero movies as a genre are set to decline yet. The DC properties, for example, seem to just be ramping up.

 

Yup. NOt to jinx it for them, but DC finally seems to be getting it right.

 

 

[RDU Neil]

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

It's possible that interest in the MCU has peaked, if only because they'll never come up with a bigger, more engrossing story line than this. I doubt that superhero movies as a genre are set to decline yet. The DC properties, for example, seem to just be ramping up.

 

I think what will be telling is whether Spider-Man: Far From Home actually addresses the insanity of Endgame and the trauma and fundamental change in the universe... or if it just ignores it and tries to be a "Everything is back to normal!" kind of deal. If the former, then they have a lot of meat to work with... to go away from traditional comic stories and explore what this universe is like, now. If the latter... I'll be quite willing to just not pay attention. The MCU has been SO GOOD at dealing with ramifications and actual causal reaction to prior events that have lasting impact on the story universe (something the comics gave up decades ago) that I'm at least hopeful they will do more with the next iteration. They've shown a mass audience can handle complex continuity... and like it. Let's see it continue. A Black Panther that shows how Wakanda expands in this new world, how it responded in the "five years" and what it does next with its King returned? Capt. Marvel with actually good writers dealing with cosmic fallout, and Earth's new place on the galactic stage. GotG hopefully disappearing and never coming back. There is a lot of real potential here. They took risks and it paid off in the first epic arc... I'd love to see them do the same going foward. (Though it will be interesting to see how they insert the Eternals into MCU without explaining "So where were you race of immortal superbeings when Thanos was doing his thing?"

[Starlord]

46 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

In this universe Skrulls are persecuted good guy immigrants so probably none of them

 

Feige is already on record saying we'll see the Skrulls again and they have varying morals just like humans.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I liked them best as villains, they were creepy and interesting that way.

 

Quote

It's possible that interest in the MCU has peaked, if only because they'll never come up with a bigger, more engrossing story line than this. 

 

 

They could, there are plenty from the marvel stories over the years (like Galactus, the Surger Winter war, Secret Wars, etc) but I don't think people have a 10-year attention span to let it build up again.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I liked them best as villains, they were creepy and interesting that way.

 

 

They could, there are plenty from the marvel stories over the years (like Galactus, the Surger Winter war, Secret Wars, etc) but I don't think people have a 10-year attention span to let it build up again.

 

I don't think that most people had a 10-year attention span this time around. People went to one movie at a time, with the promise of being entertained while watching that film. Sure, there were bits that tied into the larger story, but each movie stood on its own. That's a lesson Marvel's competitors are having to learn the hard way.

[Spence]

14 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Is this the peak point for superhero movies?  Its kind of the climax of a 10 year journey with films about Marvel characters, and they're retiring all the characters that people care about most.  I suspect that we've reached the point of maximum interest in this, like Cowboy movies in the 60s.  Time will tell.

 

14 hours ago, Old Man said:

It wouldn't surprise me if it had; going by my theory of thirty-year cultural cycles, interest in supers might be about to fall off a cliff.  That said, the MCU has to hold the title for the most consistently good movie franchise in history, and I see no reason why they couldn't keep it going.  I almost want them to pull a Watterson and just end it before it begins to decline.

 

For me they are slipping.  I really really enjoyed the earlier MCU movies.  Especially the movies showcasing single heroes. 

 

But recent movies have begun inserting the same mistakes that ruined XMen. 

First, far too many "names" in the cast.

Second, going for the ultimate big bads too soon. 

 

They really haven't left themselves very many options for tougher threats. 

 

In the beginning I made a point to see them in the theater.  Now I just don't feel the "need" to catch them anymore.  Rental will do. 

Doc Strange was my last "must see" MCU.  My favorite Marvel hero.  And the movie went from origin to defeating Docs big bad in a single movie!?

 

Really?

 

Anyway, I do hope the MCU keeps going, but I also hope someone takesva step back and corrects their course before they run aground.

 

 

 

[RDU Neil]

Since this tends to come up, and no spoilers for this thread, yet... I thought I'd post my "Revised Ranking of MCU Movies"... as each new movie changes things.

 

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier (The truest and best portrayal of Cap and Natasha and Sam, the best fight scenes, the best plot, the best natural humor... the best overall portrayal of the MCU.)

2. Avengers: Endgame (I was shocked, but they did it. They made a meaningful, moving and powerful finale that managed to tread the line between completest narrative and fan service and make it a passionate, intense work.)

3. Captain America: Civil War (Only just now knocked out of the 2nd spot by Endgame, which managed even more emotional resonance. The movie that made Endgame possible.)

4. Black Panther (True world building, political intrigue and science fiction, the best Marvel villain with the best ensemble cast ever put together and heavy social message with out a heavy hand. The best "film" Marvel has made.)

5. Spider-Man: Homecoming (The best Spider-Man, brought back to the neighborhood and given a supporting cast, character growth and the second best villain in the MCU. Without this movie, you don't have the critical Tony/Peter relationship.)

6. Ant-Man & the Wasp (MCU is at its best with films that are personal. This is a small movie, a chapter that only matters to the small group of people involved, but they make you care, and the Wasp is the dynamic lead she always should have been.)

7. Thor: Ragnarok (Uproariously funny, while still providing the character growth and development that otherwise was eluding the God of Thunder and cast. Taking a big risk to make an enjoyable movie first, not just another piece of the puzzle.)

8. The Avengers (When this came out, no one thought you could do a team movie and make it about anything more than sturm und drang. Instead we got real characters, real drama and real humor... and it set the bar that, mostly, kept being raised.)

9. Iron Man (The original still holds up, made even more resonant by the resolution of Endgame, which is why it bumps up a few notches.)

10. Iron Man 3 (Still love Shane Black's take on Tony and Rhodey's buddy cop schtick, the little kid inventor was RDJs match in every way, and the Mandarin twist was genius.)

11. Captain America: The First Avenger (Gets better with every viewing, and introduces Chris Evans as the heart of the MCU in so many ways.)

12. Avengers: Age of Ultron (Uneven... too many great moments undermined by too many miscues, but it gave us an excellent portrayal of Vision.)

13. Thor: Dark World (I know, I know, everyone hates this one, but I found it eminently watchable and really felt redeemed when they returned so deeply to this well in Endgame.)

14. Thor (Weak on action, this still gave us the high fantasy romance and the bickering Odinsons that were the highlight of every film in which they appeared.)

15. Guardians of the Galaxy (Funny and original, taking a risk with such characters, but the low-brow humor is a one trick pony and going back to this well ruined GotG2 and Infinity War.)

16. Dr. Strange (Simply too flat and full of traditional "new guy shows up and is way better than every other person who has been doing it forever" tropes. I always hated that, and the "wise ass with a goatee" is mastered by RDJ, so feels meh, here.)

17. Ant-Man (I will simply not forgive the sexism in writing a story where you even ADMIT the woman should be the hero... but no, its got to be the man. It is so flagrant it ruins what is otherwise a fun kids/heist movie.)

18. Iron Man 2 (Uneven, and ultimately better for its introduction of Black Widow than anything else.)

19. The Incredible Hulk (Not terrible, but simply gets knocked down the list by "Would I want to watch the Hulk, or..." It is usually the other movie.)

20. Avengers: Infinity War (While Endgame certainly made inroads to redeem this, it is not a good movie in any way on its own. It is sound a fury and nothing, and felt like an entire movie, where characters made you care about the action, was missing.)

21. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (I'd watch Howard the Duck before I watched this garbage again. If the joke was funny the first time, doing it three times again should be even funnier!)

22. Captain Marvel (Cheap and derivative, badly directed, written and acted on every level. Fan service pandering and flat out boring.)


I find it interesting how the more recent Marvel movies are very polarized for me. I either love them or I hate them. In some ways this is good. It means they are trying to take chances and not sticking to a formula, so I'm not complaining. You don't get Winter Soldier or Endgame if you play it safe.

 

[Bazza]

 

[csyphrett]

It had to be the man in Ant Man because Scott Lang was Hank Pym's version of the Suicide Squad. Hank didn't care if Scott died doing the deed. He did care about Hope. It was part of his character growth that showed he had been building her a suit the whole time.

CES

[Bazza]

Phil Lord, Chris Miller Developing Marvel TV Universe With Nine-Figure Sony Overall Deal

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/phil-lord-chris-miller-eye-marvel-tv-series-nine-figure-sony-deal-1205614

 

[Bazza]

Scott has a criminal record. Hank & Hope don't. Hope is also an executive in the company. If Hope did the heist, and the press found out, it would be a PR disaster for the Pyms. Ergo, pragmaticism is that Hank finds a fall guy and has plausible deniability. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't think that most people had a 10-year attention span this time around. People went to one movie at a time, with the promise of being entertained while watching that film

 

Yeah if they had been told this was a 10 year project up front, nobody would have put up with it.  But by just putting out films and moving toward something, it built interest.  I don't see that working again. Maybe some crossover stuff, and maybe Avengers films that are self contained but not a big crossover event thing.

[archer]

7 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I think what will be telling is whether Spider-Man: Far From Home actually addresses the insanity of Endgame and the trauma and fundamental change in the universe... or if it just ignores it and tries to be a "Everything is back to normal!" kind of deal. If the former, then they have a lot of meat to work with... to go away from traditional comic stories and explore what this universe is like, now. If the latter... I'll be quite willing to just not pay attention. The MCU has been SO GOOD at dealing with ramifications and actual causal reaction to prior events that have lasting impact on the story universe (something the comics gave up decades ago) that I'm at least hopeful they will do more with the next iteration. They've shown a mass audience can handle complex continuity... and like it. Let's see it continue. A Black Panther that shows how Wakanda expands in this new world, how it responded in the "five years" and what it does next with its King returned? Capt. Marvel with actually good writers dealing with cosmic fallout, and Earth's new place on the galactic stage. GotG hopefully disappearing and never coming back. There is a lot of real potential here. They took risks and it paid off in the first epic arc... I'd love to see them do the same going foward. (Though it will be interesting to see how they insert the Eternals into MCU without explaining "So where were you race of immortal superbeings when Thanos was doing his thing?"

 

 

This ^^^ a thousand times over.

 

I'd love to see the post-snap world try to justify the Sokovia Accords actively trying to keep people from being heroes at all and making the few heroes who are willing to work under burdensome regulations have to wait to save the world until after a committee decides it is okay for them to act.

 

Having heroes wait until a committee decides it's okay for them to act didn't work well in Infinity War and probably won't work well in the future either.

 

When the next universe-threatening menace comes to Earth, do you want your heroes to be in jail or be waiting until a committee decides it's okay to keep it from destroying the planet? I'd bet the 50% of the population of the planet who got wiped out for five years then were miraculously restored aren't wildly in favor of restricting the people who can stop genocide from happening.

[Ternaugh]

I went to Captain Marvel at a matinee today, and will most likely see Avengers: Endgame tomorrow. Captain Marvel was serviceable, though not exceptional.

[Grailknight]

8 hours ago, Bazza said:

Scott has a criminal record. Hank & Hope don't. Hope is also an executive in the company. If Hope did the heist, and the press found out, it would be a PR disaster for the Pyms. Ergo, pragmaticism is that Hank finds a fall guy and has plausible deniability. 

 

Scott was also a thief and they needed him(and his crew) to pull off the heist.

[RDU Neil]

15 hours ago, csyphrett said:

It had to be the man in Ant Man because Scott Lang was Hank Pym's version of the Suicide Squad. Hank didn't care if Scott died doing the deed. He did care about Hope. It was part of his character growth that showed he had been building her a suit the whole time.

CES

 

The definition of sexism... male character growth at the expense of the woman. I'm not saying there isn't logic to it from Pym's POV, but it is just another version of the woman suffering so the man gets to grow. The fact that it is just such a common trope is exactly why it rankles so much.

[massey]

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

 

The definition of sexism... male character growth at the expense of the woman. I'm not saying there isn't logic to it from Pym's POV, but it is just another version of the woman suffering so the man gets to grow. The fact that it is just such a common trope is exactly why it rankles so much.

 

It's not sexism.  The movie is called Ant Man and stars Paul Rudd.  Therefore Ant Man has to be the hero.  The fact that a female character within the story is more capable than the male hero is not sexism.  It's supposed to be female empowerment.  You may not like the movie, but it's certainly not sexist.

[massey]

As far as the MCU goes, I think the Avengers are done.  Everything has built up to this, I think things wind down significantly from here.  We didn't see Thanos until the end credits of Avengers.  There's no reason to introduce a new major villain now.  I think they'll flesh out the universe with new characters that we haven't seen much of yet.  They can let things build naturally for a while.  The reason Thanos worked so well is because they built to him gradually, with films that stood on their own.  But I don't think the Avengers will be the main focus from here on out.  Their story is over at this point, they got the big send-off.

 

My guess is that Marvel will have a few sequels (Spidey, Black Panther, GotG 3, etc) while they figure out how to (or whether to) incorporate the Fantastic Four and the X-Men.  They'll try a couple of smaller movies with new heroes, sort of like they did with Ant Man, and see if those catch on or not.  But I think the story will really shift away from the Avengers.  You'll still probably have Nick Fury poking around in the shadows, connecting everything though.

[Hermit]

34 minutes ago, massey said:

 

It's not sexism.  The movie is called Ant Man and stars Paul Rudd.  Therefore Ant Man has to be the hero.  The fact that a female character within the story is more capable than the male hero is not sexism.  It's supposed to be female empowerment.  You may not like the movie, but it's certainly not sexist.

Agreed. Plenty of movies have more competent characters who are not the focus (Star Wars New Hope frex). Hank and Hope BOTH could kick Scott's ass in the first movie. The fact that one of the badasses who had to stand back was a woman is actually progress to my thinking, as it was recognized in movie that she would be better at this than Scott, with even Scott admitting that his main virtue was he was expendable in Hank's eyes. his second one that he was a criminal with some experiences in breaking and entering.

 

 I think if it had been a son and not a daughter , that son still would have been 'heroblocked' by Hank. Is there a term for such a thing as anti-nepotism? Where your family tie works against you?

 

[Lord Liaden]

Now that Marvel Studios has him to play with, I'd like to see them gradually introduce Doctor Doom as the behind-the-scenes mastermind across the MCU, with or without the FF (at least initially). If anyone can rival Thanos in playing the long game for the highest stakes, it's Doom.