Hugh Neilson Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 What I noticed from the Speed Force episode is how much Peter Parker dwells within young Barry Allen. Motivated by guilt over failure to save a close relative; certainly feels the "great power/great responsibility" schtick to the point of holding himself responsible for far too much that is not his fault. Also noted that he gave up his speed because "I wanted to be a hero", not "to save a life", or "because I thought it was the right thing to do", but to look like a hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 Gee, you mean the TV and movie versions of characters are different than the comics version? The show runners don't ignore the comics. They constantly drop references and Easter eggs. They also purposely deviate from the comics to keep the story fresh, even for long time comics fans. The speed force doesn't have to be sentient or come from Barry or . . . whatever. It could all have been a dream or hallucination. (In the context of the show, I actually like this explanation the best.) But that doesn't mean that the show runners weren't referencing Barry's close relationship with the speed force. Yes. My comment was not in opposition to your argument. It was more or less agreeing with it. Perhaps I should have quoted your post and started mine with "I agree". Sorry for the confusion. I was simply trying to say that while there be something (for example, the speed force) that appears in both the comics and the TV series, they may not be the same. So, you cannot necessarily use information from the comics when discussing how the TV show version works. That's all I was saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 What I noticed from the Speed Force episode is how much Peter Parker dwells within young Barry Allen. Motivated by guilt over failure to save a close relative; certainly feels the "great power/great responsibility" schtick to the point of holding himself responsible for far too much that is not his fault. Also noted that he gave up his speed because "I wanted to be a hero", not "to save a life", or "because I thought it was the right thing to do", but to look like a hero. Interesting that you equate wanting to BE a hero with wanting to LOOK LIKE a hero. They seem to be two different things to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 Yes. My comment was not in opposition to your argument. It was more or less agreeing with it. Perhaps I should have quoted your post and started mine with "I agree". Sorry for the confusion. I was simply trying to say that while there be something (for example, the speed force) that appears in both the comics and the TV series, they may not be the same. So, you cannot necessarily use information from the comics when discussing how the TV show version works. That's all I was saying. Ah, OK. I get confused easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 What I noticed from the Speed Force episode is how much Peter Parker dwells within young Barry Allen. Motivated by guilt over failure to save a close relative; certainly feels the "great power/great responsibility" schtick to the point of holding himself responsible for far too much that is not his fault. Well, I think Barry has a whole lot more to feel guilty about than Peter Parker, assuming you are referring to Uncle Ben. In Peter's case, his guilt is acquired rather indirectly through the law of unintended consequences. In Barry's case, when he went back in time he actively chose to let his mother die rather than save her. Now, I happen to agree with the speed force when it suggests (Socratically) that Barry's mother would not have wanted him to die in her place, but his guilt is of a much higher order than Peter's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 Saving his mother and letting his younger self die would have created the classic paradox. His guilt is over failure to protect both his mom and his younger self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 Well, I think Barry has a whole lot more to feel guilty about than Peter Parker, assuming you are referring to Uncle Ben. In Peter's case, his guilt is acquired rather indirectly through the law of unintended consequences. In Barry's case, when he went back in time he actively chose to let his mother die rather than save her. Now, I happen to agree with the speed force when it suggests (Socratically) that Barry's mother would not have wanted him to die in her place, but his guilt is of a much higher order than Peter's. He should feel guilty about not wrapping his father in duct tape like a mummy in the fraction of a second it would have taken him. The police would have had a hard time convicting him of murder when he was clearly unable to move. I'm just sayin'....(It was literally the FIRST thing I thought of when he got to the past and was unable to save him mom. "Well, at least Dad won't go to prison!") Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted May 18, 2016 Report Share Posted May 18, 2016 2 years later his dad dies in a car accident.... DON'T MESS WITH TIME! Bazza 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted May 18, 2016 Report Share Posted May 18, 2016 This week's episode was pretty good I thought, tho it would've been nice to see the "Metapocalypse" spread over more than one episode. At least we got to see Cheerful Optimistic Barry again for a few minutes. And hey! John Wesley Shipp finally got to share a scene with his former co-star Amanda Pays! But... damn Arrowverse writers really need to come up with new ways tomotivate characters besides killing off parents and other loved ones - that card's been played way too many times already. Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 This week's episode was pretty good I thought, tho it would've been nice to see the "Metapocalypse" spread over more than one episode. At least we got to see Cheerful Optimistic Barry again for a few minutes. And hey! John Wesley Shipp finally got to share a scene with his former co-star Amanda Pays! But... damn Arrowverse writers really need to come up with new ways tomotivate characters besides killing off parents and other loved ones - that card's been played way too many times already. Agreed, that was very stupid and annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 But it did fit in pretty well with the motivations and backstories for the villain. It didn't seem as arbitrary as, say, Arrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 This week's episode was pretty good I thought, tho it would've been nice to see the "Metapocalypse" spread over more than one episode. At least we got to see Cheerful Optimistic Barry again for a few minutes. And hey! John Wesley Shipp finally got to share a scene with his former co-star Amanda Pays! But... damn Arrowverse writers really need to come up with new ways tomotivate characters besides killing off parents and other loved ones - that card's been played way too many times already. Well somebody had to die. Zoom knows Barry's secret identity and where he and all of his loves ones live. Given Zoom's nature, it would make no sense for him to accept a setback like team Flash stopping the Metapocalypse without him taking revenge, and given Zoom's speed Barry can't prevent him from killing them at will. It would be nice if the team had thought to go into hiding once it became apparent that Zoom was with the other unconscious Earth 2 metahumans, but at no point has team Flash given any indication that they are that smart. Heck they haven't even secured their base at Star Labs even though at this point pretty much everyone and their grandmother has walked into by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Agreed, that was very stupid and annoying. Seriously. It took Wells/Thawne killing Flash's mother (in front of adult Barry) to help motivate him to stop Reverse Flash. It (apparently) will take Zoom killing Flash's father (in front of adult Barry) to help motivate him to stop Zoom. JFC on a pogo stick! How much convincing does Barry need to actually try to, you know, STOP Zoom? To stop with the half measures and DO IT. Countless people killed on Earth-2. A large number of people killed on Barry's earth...and he still isn't taking this seriously enough. But Now. It's. Personal! What the heck are the writers gonna do to motivate Barry to stop the major villain next time? He's all out of parents. Well, except foster-dad Joe. It will suck to be him, I'm guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 I'm actually fine with it. I didn't like the character or the actor much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 So now both Queen & Allen are orphans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Both have dead parents. Neither's an orphan, technically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Small mercies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Well somebody had to die. Zoom knows Barry's secret identity and where he and all of his loves ones live. Given Zoom's nature, it would make no sense for him to accept a setback like team Flash stopping the Metapocalypse without him taking revenge, and given Zoom's speed Barry can't prevent him from killing them at will. It would be nice if the team had thought to go into hiding once it became apparent that Zoom was with the other unconscious Earth 2 metahumans, but at no point has team Flash given any indication that they are that smart. Heck they haven't even secured their base at Star Labs even though at this point pretty much everyone and their grandmother has walked into by now. Speaking of that...have they explained how Star Labs even stays open? At this point, isn't it an abandoned building that somehow still pays its electric bill with 4 people staying there who have no actual job/paycheck? PS: Maybe I missed that episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Speaking of that...have they explained how Star Labs even stays open? At this point, isn't it an abandoned building that somehow still pays its electric bill with 4 people staying there who have no actual job/paycheck? PS: Maybe I missed that episode. if you missed that episode, I missed the same one. Don't forget all the R&D, and the gadgets Cisco created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankL Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Now we just need to know who is in the iron mask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Isn't Wells independently super wealthy? Even if he's currently ... dead? A fugitive? I can't recall what the current legal status of the murder confessing Wells is there are ways around that with hacking, offshore accounts, and shell corporations. If he owns the land and building outright (and I think he does: 'I built Star Labs', plus Thawne's own psychology, doesn't indicate a lot of silent or vocal business partners to me) and the building provides its own power (and it would HAVE to in order to fire up that particle accelerator whenever they feel like it without blacking out the city) there's probably not a lot of upkeep to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 I liked "Invincible" right up to the last bit... man, what a waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 I'm actually fine with it. I didn't like the character or the actor much. Oh, he was good when he played Barry Allen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fPnyQUKt6Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Isn't Wells independently super wealthy? Even if he's currently ... dead? A fugitive? I can't recall what the current legal status of the murder confessing Wells is there are ways around that with hacking, offshore accounts, and shell corporations. If he owns the land and building outright (and I think he does: 'I built Star Labs', plus Thawne's own psychology, doesn't indicate a lot of silent or vocal business partners to me) and the building provides its own power (and it would HAVE to in order to fire up that particle accelerator whenever they feel like it without blacking out the city) there's probably not a lot of upkeep to it. Thawne/Wells bequeathed Star Labs and its assets to Barry Allen, and the implication was that it makes its money from those assets (probably as a large patent library that's licensed out). Of course, one would think that the money would have been wiped out by the lawsuits after the accelerator blew up, but personal injury law doesn't appear to be as strong in the Arrowverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Of course, one would think that the money would have been wiped out by the lawsuits after the accelerator blew up, but personal injury law doesn't appear to be as strong in the Arrowverse. Lack of personal injury lawsuits is necessary to the genre. You can't have every person Flash whips out of a building at several hundred miles an hour suing him for whiplash (otherwise you end up with the plot from the Incredibles). (Which is always a series I wanted to see on TV ... something dealing with the 'hidden' years of superheroes before Syndrome started offing them - like Bob did they still secretly continue to thwart crime?) ) bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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