Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Starlord]

Who knows what effect 70 years on ice had on his physiology.  Clearly the serum is the top factor in allowing his suspended animation.  I posted what I thought would be his current age somewhere on here about a month or so ago, but now I forget where.  Physically, he's got to be pushing 180-ish years old so that's pretty impressive IMO.

[Lord Liaden]

Not quite that much in MCU continuity, though. In Captain America: The Winter Soldier Arnim Zola states he was born in 1918. Since he couldn't have gone into the ice later than 1945, that would have made him 27 at most. Marvel movie continuity seems to mostly set their movies at the dates of their real-world release. Hence Steve was thawed out in 2011, which would add another seven years to his physical aging when Infinity War came out. Then we add the 5-year gap between that and Endgame, making him physically 40 maximum. Assuming he returned to the 1940s or early '50s which the visual evidence supports, that would put him in the vicinity of 110 when we last see him in Endgame.

 

I still stand by saying, for his age he looks really good.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I have no idea what the Ultimate version of Cap is like.  The movies used the Classic version of these guys' personalities and the Ultimate version of their story and powers (mostly; Downey made Tony Stark into his own sort of persona different from any of the comics).  Even so, he should age slower, just because of the lack of DNA deterioration which scientists THINK may cause aging.  OHOTMU had Steve Rogers benching 800 pounds which is definitely superhuman, but claimed he was just peak possible human ability.

[Starlord]

25 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Not quite that much in MCU continuity, though. In Captain America: The Winter Soldier Arnim Zola states he was born in 1918. Since he couldn't have gone into the ice later than 1945, that would have made him 27 at most. Marvel movie continuity seems to mostly set their movies at the dates of their real-world release. Hence Steve was thawed out in 2011, which would add another seven years to his physical aging when Infinity War came out. Then we add the 5-year gap between that and Endgame, making him physically 40 maximum. Assuming he returned to the 1940s or early '50s which the visual evidence supports, that would put him in the vicinity of 110 when we last see him in Endgame.

 

I still stand by saying, for his age he looks really good.

 

Well, when I say 'Physically', I'm saying the number of years his physical body has existed is around 180 because that includes his time spent on ice.

 

He doesn't look any older when he gets out, but who knows what effect that has had on his physiology and, technically, he's in his late 90s at that point.  He says he's 95 in Winter Soldier.  YMMV.

 

I found it interesting that after his assassination by Crossbones in the comics, his body reverts to pre-serum levels.

[Bazza]

 

 

[Greywind]

The comics writers and editors never gave a crap about the game manuals.

[Christopher R Taylor]

They didn't really pay any attention to the OHOTMU official stats either.  I mean the Hulk was lifting a mountain range the size of the Himalayas that the Beyonder dropped on the heroes once in Secret Wars.  That's what, eleventy billion megatons?  Spider-Man can lift 15 tons, but he's challenged to fight Doc Ock's arms.  In some ways the books kind of hurt the comics by limiting expectations and making specific what was kind of uncertain before.

[Pattern Ghost]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OHOTMU had Steve Rogers benching 800 pounds which is definitely superhuman, but claimed he was just peak possible human ability.

 

Current bench press record is 1075 lbs. Which is mind-boggling. I'm sure this is one case where the guy with the comic book proportions is actually the smaller of the two, but Cap's still got enough beef on him the way he's usually drawn to make 800 seem reasonable enough.

[zslane]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Spider-Man can lift 15 tons, but he's challenged to fight Doc Ock's arms.

 

Well, I've seen recent stats that put Doc Ock's arms at 8 tons lifting capacity each. With four of them at his disposal, he has twice Spidey's total STR. That's enough to "challenge" him, I'd say, without overwhelming him.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah they beefed up Doc Ock considerably.  Of course aside from the arms, he's just a dude, so one thip from Spider-Man should put him in a coma, but that's a separate issue.

[ScottishFox]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That's what, eleventy billion megatons?  Spider-Man can lift 15 tons, but he's challenged to fight Doc Ock's arms.

 

Spiderman was a favorite of mine growing up, but nothing enraged me like the Doc Ock fights.

 

The very first punch on Doc's entirely human skull would have put him into a coma if Spiderman was holding back a lot or exploded the contents of his cranium across the battlefield if not.

 

No mere mortal should be able to withstand a single punch from a guy who is fast enough to dodge bullets and can lift north of 10 tons.  The impact energy of his super-strength super-speed enhanced punch would be like getting hit by a 10 pound bullet.

 

Instead Doc takes numerous shots to the face and keeps going like no big deal.  !@#$!@#$!@#$@#$@#$!@#

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah same thing with the Vulture.  I liked them but for crying out loud, they are just ordinary guys, and not even FIT ordinary guys.  Doc Ock is an out of shape scientist, and The Vulture is literally an old man.

[Ternaugh]

They had a special power that protected them in the early days, called the Comics Code.

 

1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

 

Spiderman was a favorite of mine growing up, but nothing enraged me like the Doc Ock fights.

 

The very first punch on Doc's entirely human skull would have put him into a coma if Spiderman was holding back a lot or exploded the contents of his cranium across the battlefield if not.

 

No mere mortal should be able to withstand a single punch from a guy who is fast enough to dodge bullets and can lift north of 10 tons.  The impact energy of his super-strength super-speed enhanced punch would be like getting hit by a 10 pound bullet.

 

Instead Doc takes numerous shots to the face and keeps going like no big deal.  !@#$!@#$!@#$@#$@#$!@#

 

52 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah same thing with the Vulture.  I liked them but for crying out loud, they are just ordinary guys, and not even FIT ordinary guys.  Doc Ock is an out of shape scientist, and The Vulture is literally an old man.

 

[Hermit]

Also... Peter is often portrayed as having a pretty strong code vs killing to use game speak, and it was strongly hinted that he didn't usually use his full strength even against some villains.

 

 

 

[ScottishFox]

5 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Peter is often portrayed as having a pretty strong code vs killing to use game speak, and it was strongly hinted that he didn't usually use his full strength even against some villains.

 

He would be able to use about 5% of his strength and still risk brain damage or death against old man Vulture, Doc Ock, or any of the circus goons with a single hit.

 

I know the target audience for comics used to be primarily children so the ethical and moral dilemmas were simplified to the point of pain, but the idea that you'd risk letting thousands die - including yourself - for fear of hitting Doc Ock just a little too hard is difficult to fathom.

[Hermit]

3 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

 

He would be able to use about 5% of his strength and still risk brain damage or death against old man Vulture, Doc Ock, or any of the circus goons with a single hit.

 

I know the target audience for comics used to be primarily children so the ethical and moral dilemmas were simplified to the point of pain, but the idea that you'd risk letting thousands die - including yourself - for fear of hitting Doc Ock just a little too hard is difficult to fathom.

 

The Vulture had his physiology enhanced and there were some writers that hinted the same electromagnetic aspects that allowed his wings to let him fly pretty much gave him a low grade force field that let him take hits at the big boy league. He certainly felt invigorated by it.

 

And with Peter? I think his CVK is almost a subconscious thing at times... not saying that he'd let THOUSANDS DIE for the sake of it... but it would explain restraint when it was just he and Doc Ock duking it out alone together.

 

I can understand this is, for some, a hanging your disbelief until it is dead rather than just suspending it; but I've always wanted a No-Prize and I'd like to think Stan will have one waiting for me in the hereafter

 

 

[Old Man]

I don't remember at what point Spider-Man was given super strength.  Even if he got it in his first issue, he was rarely portrayed as having it, except as a way to explain his survival of web-swinging and other acrobatic hijinks.

[slikmar]

It was very early on, like first 12 issues mentioned it when he and Flash were going to have a boxing match and he was trying to figure out how to NOT splatter Flash all over the place. he tried just flicking his wrist and sent Flash flying out of the ring.

IIRC, they also suggested that with Doc Ock, his arms, which usually were supporting him, would flex back with the punch, thereby removing the force from the blow.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Look there's a lot of range between "punch so hard his head explodes like a watermelon" and "punch them barely so they are not even really stunned and keep fighting."  Peter could have put them down for the count in a heartbeat with his speed and DEX, but it took forever to take these guys down.  And it wasn't the comics code, it wasn't his code vs killing, it wasn't anything logical or plausible.  It was just "if he puts them down that fast, then we don't have a story to tell and they aren't a threat to him."  It happened because that's how it was written, and like Fox said, it was annoyingly bad writing.

 

One thing that really annoys me on the internet is that there is no scene, no act, no event so idiotic or insane, or without the slightest justification that people won't leap up to argue some byzantine way that AKSHUALLY it makes sense.

No.  It doesn't.  It just is bad.  Stop defending bad.

[Hermit]

29 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Look there's a lot of range between "punch so hard his head explodes like a watermelon" and "punch them barely so they are not even really stunned and keep fighting."  Peter could have put them down for the count in a heartbeat with his speed and DEX, but it took forever to take these guys down.  And it wasn't the comics code, it wasn't his code vs killing, it wasn't anything logical or plausible.  It was just "if he puts them down that fast, then we don't have a story to tell and they aren't a threat to him."  It happened because that's how it was written, and like Fox said, it was annoyingly bad writing.

 

One thing that really annoys me on the internet is that there is no scene, no act, no event so idiotic or insane, or without the slightest justification that people won't leap up to argue some byzantine way that AKSHUALLY it makes sense.

No.  It doesn't.  It just is bad.  Stop defending bad.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

But Doctor Octopus is such a cool concept! What would be the fun if the first hit Spidey landed on him knocked him out cold?

 

Fact is, Doc Ock mixing it up with Spider-Man hand-to-hand goes back to his earliest appearances in the 1960s. So we either find a rationale to justify it, or we declare the work of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko to have been junk.

[Hugh Neilson]

12 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

But Doctor Octopus is such a cool concept! What would be the fun if the first hit Spidey landed on him knocked him out cold?

 

Fact is, Doc Ock mixing it up with Spider-Man hand-to-hand goes back to his earliest appearances in the 1960s. So we either find a rationale to justify it, or we declare the work of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko to have been junk.

 

When one looks at the opponents Spidey faced early on, neither they nor he is all that powerful.

 

Amazing Fantasy is unfair, as that was no fight. 

Spidey #1 was the FF, and the Chameleon *.

#2 - Vulture * and Tinkerer *

#3 - Doc Ock *

#4 - Sandman (Spidey wins with a vacuum cleaner)

#5 - Doc Doom, which is not really a fight

#6 - The Lizard

Vulture, Living Brain, Human Torch *, Electro *, Big Man *, Ox, Fancy Dan*, Montana*, more Doc Ock*, Mysterio*, Green Goblin*, Enforcers * again, Hulk, Kraven the Hunter *, Chamelon * again , Daredevil *, Ringmaster*, Circus of Crime *, Scorpion, Beetle, Spider-Slayer, Crime-Master *, Molten Man, The Cat*, Master Planner (Ock) *, Looter....

 

A majority of Spidey foes, even ignoring all the nameless thugs he takes in, should be pulped by his strength,  I guess that the Marvel comic sucked and should never have been successful.  Good thing the readers never figured that out, huh?

 

Practically, when one looks to the comics, resistant defenses, and even high defenses, are not all that common.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hey, not everything those guys worked on was a gem.  They did some lame stuff too.  If something is bad, its just bad, no matter how much we appreciate the creators or the characters.

I mean... Theres a Spider-Man issue where its a full splash page of an enraged, nearly berserk Spider-Man punching Doc Ock as hard as he can, with his head reeling back.  Spider Man thought Ock had killed Mary Jane, and he was filled with boiling fury.  Ock staggers around going "wow he's really mad this time" not "What century is it??" after waking up in the hospital.

 

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A majority of Spidey foes, even ignoring all the nameless thugs he takes in, should be pulped by his strength,  I guess that the Marvel comic sucked and should never have been successful.  Good thing the readers never figured that out, huh?

 

 

Readers figured it out right away (I was one of them) but it was fun otherwise so you shrugged at the dumb bits.  As I said earlier, the writers of the comics almost never were consistent about the abilities of the characters.  That's why Mirror Master can fight the Flash, who should be able to run around the entire planet 3 times before he moves his hand to that wrist device to push a button.  Part of it is lame writing, part of it is inconsistency, and part of it is just "well how else is he going to face a challenge??"

 

DC is really really bad about this.  They over power their heroes to ridiculous extremes then have to figure out ways they get beat up anyway even if it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

One thing that really annoys me on the internet is that there is no scene, no act, no event so idiotic or insane, or without the slightest justification that people won't leap up to argue some byzantine way that AKSHUALLY it makes sense.

No.  It doesn't.  It just is bad.  Stop defending bad.

 

I think the same thing when people defend or fall over themselves to defend twits and various munchkins non-gamers. 

[Pattern Ghost]

The thing that bugs me about Doc Ock fights is that Spidey is shown in the same era simply finger flicking thugs unconscious, so he clearly has enough control to K-O Doc the same way, but doesn't.