Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[unclevlad]

Also, too many 'conservatives' were perfectly happy to support Trump despite so many severe warning signs, and they got what I think they wanted the most:  the conservative majority on the Supreme Court.  Throwing Trump to the lions now is purely political calculus;  he can't give them *anything close* to similar value any more, and his cost has become too high.

[Hermit]

Speaking of conservatives who have been FIGHTING for democracy...

Props to the Lincoln Project

 

 

 

January 6, 2021 - “Today’s violence and insurrection in Washington and in state capitols is the direct responsibility of Donald Trump. This shameful culmination of four years of lies, propaganda, dog whistles, gaslighting, and conspiracy theories at the hands of a dangerous, unstable president has now put our Constitutional system of government at risk. While our democracy has been under attack since Donald Trump was elected in 2016, today’s domestic terrorist attack on the Capitol highlights just how much Trump and his enablers have entirely abandoned the principles of the Constitution and the Republic.

This is no longer simply about Donald Trump’s charade. It is an armed, violent, and planned insurrection against the United States of America. It is a moment where the tenets of Trumpism replaced the tenets of American democracy with the inevitable, violent results.

“Make no mistake, this is sedition and insurrection,” said Lincoln Project co-founder Rick Wilson, “People have long asked why the Lincoln Project has targeted Trump’s Republican allies, and today they have their answer. Those Republicans who have endorsed and encouraged Trump’s lawless coup attempt in the House and Senate deserve to be prosecuted, not seated in the halls of government.”

“The House should immediately impeach Donald Trump for directing and provoking this attack. The United States Senate should immediately vote to convict and remove him from office. Any Member of Congress who refuses to do so should be considered a co-conspirator.”

 

 

[DShomshak]

So as to how vigorously to investigate and prosecute the people who organized and participated in the Capitol Insurrection...

 

My concern is that the FBI and other agencies won't push too hard or attempt too thorough a sweep because of "Weaver Fever," the decades-long policy of treating right-wing anti-government extremists with kid gloves lest they be riled into committing worse acts, as the Ruby Ridge incident helped provoke the Oklahoma City bombing.

 

I think that policy is wrong. Instead, I offer the advice given in the PoiSci textbook People, Power, and Politics, by John C. Donovan, Richard E. Morgan, and Christian P. Potholm. The chapter on "Revoutionary Change and Counterelites" ends with a section on "Some Practical Advice for the Ruler in Dealing With Revolutionary Counterelites: Machiavelli Brought Up to Date."

 

"1. Don't worry about the disloyal opposition. There will always be some people who will oppose your government, no matter what you do! Jail these chaps or send them into exile, but don't waste time trying to convert them. Those who are bent on the violent overthrow of the political system should not be placated or coddled. And don't be too quick to grant them amnesty. Remember the examples of Stalin, Castro, and Hitler [23]

[Footnote 23: For advocating the violent overthrow of the Weimar Republic and marching at the head of a group of men bent on the same, Hitler spent one year in a luxurious prison, where he wrote Min Kampf. Once in power, Hitler did not make a similar mistake in dealing with his opponents.]"

 

So find the organizers, the funders and manufacturers of internet fakery, and Gitmo their asses.

 

Still, this does not mean that everyone who believes Trump's lies is culpable. The authors also suggest:

 

"2. Do worry about the loyal opposition. There will always be people who oppose specific policies of your government but who are basically loyal to the system. These people will seek the government's overthrow only if you force them into it. Do not jail, torture, harass, or exile the loyal opposition.

when in doubt, assume the opposition is loyal until definitely proven otherwise. You will lose far more than you will gain by treating this part of the body politic harshly."

 

Sen. Josh Hawley has definitely placed himself in the "disloyal opposition" camp. ATC noted that he has a Harvard law degree and taught Constitutional law as a college professor. He knows perfectly well that his claims have been false and his actions seditious. Oh, and that First Amendment rights are not violated when a private company decides it doesn't want to publish his book after all.

 

Dean Shomshak

[csyphrett]

The look that Romney gives Hawley is a classic meme picture that has been going around.

CES

I wonder what the actual penalties will be for all this. I said on another forum I wonder how many people know they confessed to accessory to murder on Facebook. The first two laws of committing a crime are don't show your face, and don't admit it.

CES 

Also a twitter thread has been posted asking people to admit to what they did so they can be defended and Marjorie Green has asked for phone and email contacts on Parler and people are giving them to her

CES

[Dr. MID-Nite]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

 

First, can we define who "THEY" is? Because, maybe I misread Cancer, but I thought he meant Americans with a conservative bent and often rural background. Others seem to be defining THEY to those who stormed the white house in a seditious act, and it's a mistake to assume all of the former are the same mindset as the latter. 

 

That said, yes, as a guy who voted for Bernie in the primaries I totally feel the frustration of being told that ideas I think are just  common sense and common decency are too big and unrealistic over and over. Be it from more moderate democrats or those voting republican.  I'm sure they're frustrated with me being so fussy about such.

 

You can want border security while recognizing that families being separated is wrong and without discouraging increased means for LEGAL immigration. 

You can be pro right to bear arms or even LIKE guns without being against waiting periods or background checks.

You can be against Free Trade set ups that seem to cost jobs at home without being xenophobic.

 

Some folks are treating ANYONE with a conservative leaning as if they're cheering Trump on, and that is delusional and destructive in a time when we're already loaded up on destructive delusion in this country and we don't need more.

 

 

I get that. However, conservative elements are in control of the country and have been for a long time with the obvious negative consequences.. And they don't tend towards centrist idealism. If anything, they tend to prod centrists towards more extreme conservatism by their rhetoric. 

[unclevlad]

6 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

The look that Romney gives Hawley is a classic meme picture that has been going around.

CES

 Long article excoriating Hawley here.  

https://www.chicagotribune.com/election-2020/ct-josh-hawley-capitol-backlash-20210108-775mnvr2mbfmpofydrparxpuii-story.html

 

Thing is, this may do nothing but ingratiate him further with the hard-core Trumpists at the same time.  So his fate might be linked to the degree the Republican Party steps away...and the problem is, the *#$@#$ still got 75 million votes.

[csyphrett]

7 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 Long article excoriating Hawley here.  

https://www.chicagotribune.com/election-2020/ct-josh-hawley-capitol-backlash-20210108-775mnvr2mbfmpofydrparxpuii-story.html

 

Thing is, this may do nothing but ingratiate him further with the hard-core Trumpists at the same time.  So his fate might be linked to the degree the Republican Party steps away...and the problem is, the *#$@#$ still got 75 million votes.

The thing with Ted Cruz was hilarious

CES

[TrickstaPriest]

39 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

The thing with Ted Cruz was hilarious

 

 

?

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

Speaking of conservatives who have been FIGHTING for democracy...

Props to the Lincoln Project

 

That certainly is a strongly worded press release.  

 

From where I sit, it was a number of "nice" Republicans who managed to siphon off Democratic energy, activism, and dollars, to help "nice" Republicans win a number of down-ballot races   Including switching several state legislatures from Democratic to Republican.  In a census year.  When congressional redistricting is done.  By state legislatures.  

 

How many Lincoln Project supported candidates won in Congress?  How many Lincoln Project supported candidates were part of the 100+ Congressional Republicans who attempted to overturn the will of the voters in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania?  I'm honestly curious.

[TrickstaPriest]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/politics/pennsylvania-state-senate-gop/

[Cygnia]

Video surfaces of Oregon GOP rep holding state Capitol door open last month, allowing protesters to enter

 

[Cygnia]

 

[IndianaJoe3]

 

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/politics/pennsylvania-state-senate-gop/

 

Yeah, that's a few days old, but the big concern it brings up is that the next battleground for all the "stolen election" claims are the state houses...many of which may be more than happy to listen.

 

Mitch McConnell sent out a memo related to any possible Senate impeachment proceedings.  There is a big problem...and it's NOT McConnell.  From TheHill.com:

Quote

McConnell’s memo notes that the Senate, which is scheduled to hold pro-forma sessions until Jan. 19, the day before Biden is to take the oath of office, cannot conduct any business during those pro-forma meetings without unanimous consent.

 

Pro forma is, I'm reasonably sure, perfectly normal for this period.  And there is obviously NO!!! chance at all for unanimous consent.

 

OHH...thanks, archer.  I meant to mention that OTHER phone call Trump made down to Georgia, that darn sure sounds like obstruction of justice to me....

[archer]

President Trump urged Georgia’s lead elections investigator to “find the fraud” in a lengthy December 23rd phone call to the investigations chief for the Georgia secretary of state’s office shortly before Christmas — while the individual was leading an inquiry into allegations of ballot fraud in Cobb County, in the suburbs of Atlanta, according to people familiar with the episode.

The president’s attempts to intervene in an ongoing investigation could amount to obstruction of justice or other criminal violations.

 

That's a completely different phone call than the more recent one to the GA Secretary of State where he urged and threated that official to "find" enough votes to overturn the election results.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/find-the-fraud-trump-pressured-a-georgia-elections-investigator-in-a-separate-call-legal-experts-say-could-amount-to-obstruction/ar-BB1cBRBn

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

Some folks are treating ANYONE with a conservative leaning as if they're cheering Trump on, and that is delusional and destructive in a time when we're already loaded up on destructive delusion in this country and we don't need more.

 

 

Hermit, I firmly believe there are substantial numbers of moderate conservatives in America, and responsible Republicans. However, they've been conspicuous by their absence on the public stage for a long time. In the GOP they were either muzzled or driven out. In the general populace they were apparently willing to tolerate the abuses by Trump and Trumpists in exchange for token nods to conservative policies.

 

It's not enough to say that both sides need to come to the table. The Left has been pushed away from the table too many times. It's now incumbent on leaders on the Right to convince the Left that they're prepared for genuine dialogue, consensus, and compromise.

[Ragitsu]

4 hours ago, Hermit said:

That said, yes, as a guy who voted for Bernie in the primaries I totally feel the frustration of being told that ideas I think are just  common sense and common decency are too big and unrealistic over and over. Be it from more moderate democrats or those voting republican.  I'm sure they're frustrated with me being so fussy about such.

 

Seeing twenty to thirty year old men carrying and waving the Red Scare torch (wailing about "communists") any time a conversation is even vaguely left-leaning is equal parts sad and pathetic.

 

Universal healthcare? Communist.

Publicly funded college (or college-equivalent) education for all? Communist.

Green New Deal/green energy? Communist.

Scaling back the military? Communist.

Pro-Choice? Communist.

Accepting/tolerant of minorities? Communist.

 

Some will say "Marxist" or "Socialist", but they're all the same damn thing. We need to shift the Overton Window A.S.A.P.

[TrickstaPriest]

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Hermit, I firmly believe there are substantial numbers of moderate conservatives in America, and responsible Republicans. However, they've been conspicuous by their absence on the public stage for a long time. In the GOP they were either muzzled or driven out. In the general populace they were apparently willing to tolerate the abuses by Trump and Trumpists in exchange for token nods to conservative policies.

 

It's not enough to say that both sides need to come to the table. The Left has been pushed away from the table too many times. It's now incumbent on leaders on the Right to convince the Left that they're prepared for genuine dialogue, consensus, and compromise.

 

This is the discourse level the political youth are having.  It's gone a long way from the old days.

 

So I'm not sure how I'm supposed to 'work with this'.

 

For everyone else, sure.

 

 

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 In the general populace they were apparently willing to tolerate the abuses by Trump and Trumpists in exchange for token nods to conservative policies.

 

 

Pardon me narrowing down to just this quote. Let's just say that I am PISSED at 90% of the GOP in Congress and leave it at that as far as the actual republican leadership goes and I agree it's on the Republican politicians to show they are truly acting in good faith.  They should reach out first, and offer something up first. 

And even then I wouldn't blame the Democrats in Congress for not wanting to chance it but would hope they'd try.

 

But as for the general populace, some of the right leaners I know felt and feel they weren't getting ANY Nods from Democrat Politicos (Beyond Coal Miners being told to go learn Code as if were easy.) And they resented the old mainstream GOP gave them those tokens instead of real effort. Hence, at least a few tell me, that's why they turned to Trump in 2016

 

Of course, we know Trump told them what they wanted to hear, fed them hateful excuses to explain WHY things were going bad, and lied through his teeth ... the guy's a skilled con man if nothing else. But we're going to need to address those issues of lost manufacturing job, health care that's friendly to small businessmen among other things. Or they'll either be apathetic or worse, be vulnerable to the next Trump 2.0.

 

30% of folks who voted for Trump in 2016 voted for Obama in 2008 . And even if it was closer than it should have been imo, Biden did win in 2020 on what was (also in my opinion) a 'Stop Trump' ticket.

 

That gives me SOME hope

 

but I confess, I share a lot of concerns with others about how to deprogram a cult this large

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Seeing twenty to thirty year old men carrying the Red Scare torch (wailing about "communists") is equal parts sad and pathetic.

 

*Sigh* It's certainly disheartening. Clearly a lot of people don't know what socialism is.

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Seeing twenty to thirty year old men carrying and waving the Red Scare torch (wailing about "communists") any time a conversation is even vaguely left-leaning is equal parts sad and pathetic.

 

Universal healthcare? Communist.

Publicly funded college (or college-equivalent) education for all? Communist.

Green New Deal/green energy? Communist.

Scaling back the military? Communist.

Pro-Choice? Communist.

Accepting/tolerant of minorities? Communist.

 

Some will say "Marxist" or "Socialist", but they're all the same damn thing. We need to shift the Overton Window A.S.A.P.

 

What gets me is that if policies like Universal Healthcare , affordable college and the like ARE socialist, and socialist can never be democratic...

well, NATO's got a LOT of Commie tyrannies! Le Gasp. In fact, I think we lost most of Europe!

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Not gonna bust your chops any more, Hermit. Your bottom line is to try to be fair to everyone, and I have to respect that. 

 

[Hermit]

12 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Not gonna bust your chops any more, Hermit. Your bottom line is to try to be fair to everyone, and I have to respect that. 

 

 

I never saw it as busting chops . It can be.. vexing, of course, to feel like I'm right and why can't people see that but then there are nights, horrible horrible nights, when I look into my heart of hearts, and have the sudden irrational fear that I may not know everything after all.

 

Terrifying!

 

 

[unclevlad]

16 minutes ago, Hermit said:

 

I never saw it as busting chops . It can be.. vexing, of course, to feel like I'm right and why can't people see that but then there are nights, horrible horrible nights, when I look into my heart of hearts, and have the sudden irrational fear that I may not know everything after all.

 

Terrifying!

 

 

I could lie and say I know how you feel but I prefer to make my lies at least barely plausible...

 

 

Just try to avoid sinking down here....the Jules version, NOT the Darko version, I might add...

 

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world, mad world

[csyphrett]

6 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

I never saw it as busting chops . It can be.. vexing, of course, to feel like I'm right and why can't people see that but then there are nights, horrible horrible nights, when I look into my heart of hearts, and have the sudden irrational fear that I may not know everything after all.

 

Terrifying!

 

 

I never have this problem

CES

9 hours ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

?

Part of the story is a quote from the Houston Chronicle where they are like Texas has a bunch of blowhards in public office talking like they chewed too  much peyote, but Ted Cruz knows better. If the next line in the quote was he needs to go back to Canada, I would have laughed like a hyena

CES

[Old Man]

PSA: You may have noticed over the past few days that many right wing leaders have been kicked off social media, and Parler was kicked off Android, Apple, and Amazon.  The reason for this is not because of what happened last Wednesday, but because right wing operatives are planning additional violence on the 17th, 19th, and 20th.  Some states (e.g. Washington) have already suffered similar mob attacks on state government facilities and are requesting assistance from the National Guard to secure them.

 

Readers may want to factor this into their travel plans.  Or if you're a literal Nazi, better head on over to Parler, wouldn't want you to miss out on the fun.