DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Spence]

24 minutes ago, Old Man said:

That and splitting storylines across multiple titles, making them next to impossible to track and keep up with.

 

It's possible that Superman is too difficult to make a successful movie out of.  More knowledgeable people than I have pointed out that Superman (and -girl) fare much better as TV series, where the episodic format and lower budgets force writers to focus on Clark and Kara, not effects-laden battle royales.

 

1st, yes.

 

2nd, Superman is an easy character to make a movie of, but first you have to actually read a Superman comic.  Normally I'd say ignore anything after the 80's, but to be safe ignore anything after the 70's.  A weak writer slapping together a poor excuse for a story and then pasting a character and calling it Superman does not make a Superman story.

[Scott Ruggels]

Superman for All Seasons was a graphic novel that made me re-asses Superman as a character. The DCAU Superman shows, which came later,  gave Superman a limited set of powers, supreme strength, but he showed restraint and intelligence. Most of those were very well written, and show an understanding of the character. The “World of Cardboard “ speech shows the level of writing that elevated the character:

 

[slikmar]

3 hours ago, Bazza said:

Justice League Is still the DCEU film I’d watch again out of all of them. 

I agree. It is the one I like the most too, though I enjoy WW and Aquaman. I like the human elements of JL, which I would wager Joss brought. Bruce telling Alfred he wants Clark back because he can bring the others together because he is more human (which I think Snyder gets Bats, but not supes). The opening when they do the montage of people around the world missing Clark along with the little interview by the kids, which Joss added. All the little humorous parts (I would be curious who put in Flash looking at Gordon and saying "wow, so they do that, that's rude" then running off).

My problem with that article is that the author at Comicbook.com represented that comic FANS liked Snyder's vision. I have yet to hear a single fan say that they were upset they brought Wedon in to try to fix the movie and that they all thought Snyder's doom and gloom (for all I know, in his version Steppenwolf won).

On a side, has anyone seen the Snyder release? did he cut out all the Whedon parts and put his back in?

[Ternaugh]

The Snyder Cut isn't a complete work at this time. It's going to cost at least $30 million to finish it, not to mention time to shoot new scenes and create the special effects. HBO Max isn't expecting to show it until the middle of next year.

[slikmar]

Ah. I had thought was something being released immediately. My mistake.

[Doc Democracy]

8 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

there are two audiences for comic-: The fans and the general public. The fans adore the world building and the tight continuity. It’s adds greatly to their enjoyment of the property. The general audiences enjoy a good story, and the comic editor want to turn the general audience into fans. Discussions of the continuity are

often what builds the fan community.
 

 

So I was general public?  Because I do not adore tight continuity?  There was no other pastime I was spending £30 or £40 a month, every month on, I'd bet HERO would have loved folk spending that every month.

[Greywind]

You'd probably prefer the Golden Age stuff then, where the only resemblance there was to continuity was the regular cast of characters and no story impacted upon any other.

 

Personally, I prefer the world building approach. Everything may not impact on everyone else, but it may get mentioned in passing. I would have loved it if Marvel and DC had more living worlds, but then, that kind of screws with character longevity.

[Doc Democracy]

You say that as if I have never read comics.  🙂  Am running a Golden Age game right now.  I do like a modicum of continuity - that is what a story is after all.  I love the elseworlds stuff - every one a different look at a character, I loved reading in the 70's and 80's.  However, the growing edifice of story made it hard to keep up to date with everything and there was the pressure to pick up other titles to remain current.  I resented it.  I think I would prefer a title, with a creative team writing a great story for a while.  You would then get a new creative team which would have no constraint to be true to the previous creative team - just to the core spirit of the title. 

 

To show my own inconsistencies - I loved All-Star Squadron where Roy Thomas went all out to re-tell the DC Golden Age introducing an over-arching continuity.  I loved that - it was a massive project that would be consistent within itself. 

 

So now I simply wait for self-contained graphic novels that catch my interest.  I spend MUCH less money on comics, which annoys me because they were something I loved.  Now the continuity puts up barriers to getting involved in things - I need to go back and learn too much.

 

It extends to the films.  My 14 year old self would be aghast that I would consider not going to see every superhero movie that came out.  I look at the Marvel ones with weariness more than excitement, I refuse to go back and fill in the gaps which means that the gaps become wider over time until I am not going to see the movies.  Talk about cutting off my nose to spite my face but it is the way my head experiences them...

 

I think I have now seen about 60% of the Marvel movies and 40% of the DC ones. 

 

I guess I am not a fan any more...

[Scott Ruggels]

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

So I was general public?  Because I do not adore tight continuity?  There was no other pastime I was spending £30 or £40 a month, every month on, I'd bet HERO would have loved folk spending that every month.

There probably was/ is a difference between the  UK and US fandoms. in the U.S. before the internet there was a very active Fanzine scene, and most of those devoted to superheroes were much like later newsgroups and forums that consisted of plot speculation and linking  events from various titles. This also often spilled into the  letter columns of the various comic books. GRRM was a frequent letter writer to Marvel in his youth. The zine's often would specialize on a certain title like  The Legion of Superheroes. I was active in Gaming zines in the early 80's, but many of those zines went back to the 1960's with many of the original  members. There was a lot of continuity tabulation and plot theories about it. This is how people spent their time in the month between issues of their favorite comics.

[zslane]

Wonder Woman is the only DCEU movie I would watch again. It is the only DCEU movie I own on physical media. It is the only DCEU movie worth watching more than once, IMO.

[Spence]

14 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Personally, I prefer the world building approach. Everything may not impact on everyone else, but it may get mentioned in passing. I would have loved it if Marvel and DC had more living worlds, but then, that kind of screws with character longevity.

 

I do as well with my qualifier being "good world building".  The vast majority of comics confused that with "grim dark dark grim scuzzy heroes are really villains blood splat blood".  Batman was never a hero, he was a vigilante.  But DC screwed up by not only trying to portray him as a hero, but grime'ing up all the other actual heroes.  Marvel was pretty much the same.

 

You can have a Hero in a bad place, but they are still heroes.  But the morons writing them were all about making them "relatable" or "realistic" and ground the whole hero concept right out of them. I read several non-comic graphic novels.  They are not superHERO comics.  They are graphic novels. 

 

I have enjoyed several of the comic based movies as well as one or two of the non-comic based ones. 

 

Superman portrays an ideal, not a real person.  When a self professed hater of the superhero concept makes a superhero movie,  you shouldn't be surprised when Superman becomes indifferent killer man. 

 

I actually liked Wonder Woman and Aquaman.  The Batman version was not bad.  Flash was meh. The actor picked could have played a good Cyborg, but the version they made just pulled a "what the heck" out of me.  Overall the DC movies with Superman have gotten worse each time, with Justce League only being dragged back up to the cliff edge overhanging the abyss by Wonder Woman and Aquaman.

 

I really liked Cavill in the part, I would just like the part to be Superman.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Spence
INcomplete sentence that completley changed the intended meaning....

[Iuz the Evil]

Shazam was pretty fantastic in my opinion. Otherwise pretty much totally agreed. 

[zslane]

I can't say I was that impressed with Shazam! Don't get me wrong, it was competently made, I just don't think I was its target demographic. The whole conceit of a kid driving a (super-powered) adult body, but still thinking and acting like a kid, was something that just didn't appeal to me all that much (as an older adult). That concept was cute when it was just a light, fluffy, dramedy starring Tom Hanks back in 1988, but it just didn't resonate with me as a narrative vehicle for telling a superhero story today.

 

Aquaman was another movie that a lot of people liked but left me fairly disappointed. While it had a lot of very comic-booky moments that I could appreciate, it was full of too much dumb stuff (most of the underwater action, for instance) for me. Plus I just can't get on board with this particular depiction of the character's personality. I don't care for Miller's bumbling, socially awkward Flash, and I don't care for Momoa's crass frat-boy Aquaman either.

 

I always thought Cavill and Affleck were good choices for Superman and Batman respectively, but I agree with Spence that neither really got to play those characters (except for Cavill who got to be Superman for Justice League's final act). I thought Cyborg was well conceived and executed in the movie, but he was weighed down with too much brooding angst, and I think that really marred what was otherwise a terrific portrayal. That leaves Gal Godot who takes the award for best portrayal as I feel she embodied--and more importantly, was allowed to embody--the character of Wonder Woman in all her powerful, compassionate, thoughtful glory.

 

Apart from a by-the-numbers, CGI-heavy Final Battle, the Wonder Woman movie did pretty much everything right, and in some cases showed flashes of cinematic brilliance. That's why, in my view, it stands head and shoulders above all other DCEU movies.

[Spence]

4 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Shazam was pretty fantastic in my opinion. Otherwise pretty much totally agreed. 

 

Shazam was never my cup of tea so I tend to completely forget that movie.  But yes, it easily stands in the upper ranks of superHERO movies.  As much as it pained me to admit that

 

[clnicholsusa]

Strangely, I find that my enjoyment of a DCEU movie is the inverse of my familiarity with the print media.

I wonder if I had read more Jonah Hex from the newsstand if I would have liked the movie as much.

[Scott Ruggels]

On 5/29/2020 at 2:56 AM, Doc Democracy said:

You say that as if I have never read comics.  🙂  Am running a Golden Age game right now.  I do like a modicum of continuity - that is what a story is after all.  I love the elseworlds stuff - every one a different look at a character, I loved reading in the 70's and 80's.  However, the growing edifice of story made it hard to keep up to date with everything and there was the pressure to pick up other titles to remain current.  I resented it.  I think I would prefer a title, with a creative team writing a great story for a while.  You would then get a new creative team which would have no constraint to be true to the previous creative team - just to the core spirit of the title. 

 

To show my own inconsistencies - I loved All-Star Squadron where Roy Thomas went all out to re-tell the DC Golden Age introducing an over-arching continuity.  I loved that - it was a massive project that would be consistent within itself. 

 

So now I simply wait for self-contained graphic novels that catch my interest.  I spend MUCH less money on comics, which annoys me because they were something I loved.  Now the continuity puts up barriers to getting involved in things - I need to go back and learn too much.

 

It extends to the films.  My 14 year old self would be aghast that I would consider not going to see every superhero movie that came out.  I look at the Marvel ones with weariness more than excitement, I refuse to go back and fill in the gaps which means that the gaps become wider over time until I am not going to see the movies.  Talk about cutting off my nose to spite my face but it is the way my head experiences them...

 

I think I have now seen about 60% of the Marvel movies and 40% of the DC ones. 

 

I guess I am not a fan any more...

 

 

Ohhh I think I understand...

 

It used to be cross overs and events, were... "events".  However,  Rising cover prices, and declines in writing, (especially in Marvel since 2014) has forced them to put out "events" to artificially pump up sales of lesser selling titles in their line.  This kind of forced the conductibility of the titles, in the hopes of generating more sales. The actual business of comic books is supposed to be showing a profit for their corporate masters.  With declining numerical sales over time, the comic book companies relied on  increasing the cover price, and gimmicks to goose sales.  Marvel was/ is particularly bad about this. with an "event" every year. Then came the poor editorial decisions, and at this point, I could care less if Marvel Comics  goes away at this point.

So like you I am not really a fan any more.

 

 

[Matt the Bruins]

Wonder Woman was by far my favorite of the DCEU movies, with only the aforementioned too video game-y final CGI battle marring an otherwise superb film. But I also largely enjoyed Man of Steel despite finding several elements offensive (suicidal Do-No-Help Pa Kent, the destruction porn toward the end) or endlessly mockable (action hero Jor-El, the dildo rockets straight out of Flesh Gordon, Michael Shannon's bug-eyed yelling). In any event, I don't attribute any of the problems with that movie or its sequel to the casting of Henry Cavill or his performance, so I hope if nothing else this endless whinging on the part of fanboys to see the as-yet-nonexistent Snyder Cut will result in him returning to the fold for future movies.

[Iuz the Evil]

17 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

Wonder Woman was by far my favorite of the DCEU movies, with only the aforementioned too video game-y final CGI battle marring an otherwise superb film. But I also largely enjoyed Man of Steel despite finding several elements offensive (suicidal Do-No-Help Pa Kent, the destruction porn toward the end) or endlessly mockable (action hero Jor-El, the dildo rockets straight out of Flesh Gordon, Michael Shannon's bug-eyed yelling). In any event, I don't attribute any of the problems with that movie or its sequel to the casting of Henry Cavill or his performance, so I hope if nothing else this endless whinging on the part of fanboys to see the as-yet-nonexistent Snyder Cut will result in him returning to the fold for future movies.

Yeah, I really didn't like Man of Steel aside from a couple scenes... but thought Cavill was great. I'd welcome him back in the role.

[pinecone]

Canthe opening song for the next Supes film be "Toss a coin to your Super"?

[Bazza]

 

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Bazza said:

 

 

Meh... it's been over 50 years since the character was first printed.  No matter how bad the show, you'll be able to find anything to post. 

The Suicide Squad has only succeeded in destroying the franchise until it can fade into memory and let someone else try. 

[Greywind]

Didn't see where they had finished The Suicide Squad yet. Was it any good? What role did Fillion have?

[Spence]

26 minutes ago, Greywind said:

Didn't see where they had finished The Suicide Squad yet. Was it any good? What role did Fillion have?

 

Huh?  Suicide Squad was in theaters in 2016.  Are they making a second with Fillion?

 

[Old Man]

Yup.

[Spence]

Well..

 

They did make more than one D&D movie as horrible as they were.  So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.